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  #61  
Old 03-15-2009, 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by tonybones2112 View Post
I ask of those who believe the Body of Christ is the "Bride", to what purpose is it for Jesus to marry Himself?
So that He can be "one" with His church, as is the purpose of every marriage:

Ephesians 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Spiritually speaking, I am married to Jesus Christ now (1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit), but not physically, my body is still unsaved, so in that sense I am like a chaste virgin engaged to be married to Christ at a future time up in heaven when I am fully redeemed.
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  #62  
Old 03-15-2009, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian View Post
So that He can be "one" with His church, as is the purpose of every marriage:

Ephesians 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Spiritually speaking, I am married to Jesus Christ now (1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit), but not physically, my body is still unsaved, so in that sense I am like a chaste virgin engaged to be married to Christ at a future time up in heaven when I am fully redeemed.
I don;t think we are married to anything right now Matt, I think we are grafted into the Body of the Groom, not the Bride, which was and is to come yet. That grafting with co-equal Gentiles and Jews was the mystery not made known from before the foundation of the world and kept hid in God. At that marriage we will not be God, but in Him and of Him then Christ will make al in all and present the combined Kingdom of Heaven with the Kingdom of God unto the Father, and the story will end where it began. We will be kings(the Groom, the Body) and priests(the Bride, Israel and New Jerusalem) unto God and His Father(Rev. 1:6). The New Heavens, the Universe, will be inhabited and we will then go forth and populate the New Worlds, with a King and Priest ruling over each New World in eternal peace and harmony in a Reality with no death or sin, for all eternity. And the memories of thepresent times, the suffering and injustice will be no more, for all things will be made new again. That's the hope lives in all of us and the hope we give the lost world that through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ we may, Jew or gentile, come to God again after being separated from Him. I didn't get that hope of eternity with a friend closer than a brother htrough reading a KJV, I got it from BELIEVING it.

Grace and peace to you brother, I hope your weekend has been better than mine.

Tony

Grcae and peace to you brither
  #63  
Old 03-15-2009, 05:55 AM
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The Point of this thread was to open the eye's of the Church to unsound doctrines that are taught as sound doctrines. This one being that the Body of Christ is the Bride of Rev 21 of which is most certainly is not.

the are both Israel and Gentiles in the body of Christ. but only Israel is the Bride.

The Bride is not taken out of Christ as Eve was taken out of Adam. While Boaz was a type of Christ. the whole narrative is about a kinsman redeemer. and Christ coming the flesh as a man makes him such for all men. it has nothing to do with the church being a Bride of Revelation 21.

supposing's and best guesses are not support for the Doctrine that the Body of Christ is the Bride of Rev 21. At best this doctrine is false and should be corrected by men who hold God's word in righteousness. to continue to look for ways to keep this beloved false doctrine would put us in the class of them that would hold the truth of God in unrighteousness.

your time would be best spent on figuring how we can correct this not further it.

Last edited by chette777; 03-15-2009 at 06:03 AM.
  #64  
Old 03-15-2009, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by kevinvw View Post
The body of Christ is separate from Israel and Gentile nations. There are Jews, Gentiles, and the Church.

The main thing I was going for with the Adam and Eve thing was this

Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

No type is perfect, but the teaching is definitely there and Paul does compare Jesus to Adam, and I think it's clear from Gen 2 that being of one flesh and bones makes one married, so go blow it out your nose because I never said that the Church was taken out of His body.
That is why no one should make or teach a doctrine out of types.

Context determines meaning.

I have no problem with all the types anyone is trying to fit into any doctrine as long as they fit; but to make the "bride" of Revelation 19 and 21 the church is totally OUT OF CONTEXT.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

None of these sound C-H-U-R-C-H.
  #65  
Old 03-15-2009, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biblestudent View Post
That is why no one should make or teach a doctrine out of types.

Context determines meaning.

I have no problem with all the types anyone is trying to fit into any doctrine as long as they fit; but to make the "bride" of Revelation 19 and 21 the church is totally OUT OF CONTEXT.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

None of these sound C-H-U-R-C-H.
I'm not going to refuse fellowship to a Bride Believer although they will have none with me, particularly in my belief the baptism of John is no longer relevant. I've already testified to my experience in one of these churches. I think Bride Belief is not the sign of an unsaved person. My belief is however that a saved man or woman is past Satan's grasp but he can still rob us of rewards, as Bride Believers are robbed of. This belief also perpetuates a false and Scriptural exclusivity and elitism. God looks at your heart, not your church letter. If Bride Belief is the "...way to hold the church together" , you're throwing your fists in empty air, GOD is what holds the Church together, not a doctrine born in the 1850s. I don't consider Bride Belief to be a cult, but it's interesting we get the Bible "revised" and then all these little false cults spring up in the 1800s claiming to have "restored" the "gospel", I call them in print Re$tored Go$pel$. (Mormon, JW, Church Of Christ, etc.,)

Friends, I was COC for the first 30 years of my life, ain't nobody gonna tell me what damage elitism can do.

As far as I am concerned I am a member of the Groom, not the Bride, as the last message points out, the Scriptures very plainly identify the Bride and it ain;t us. I ain't robbing Israel of what is rightfully theirs.

Grace and peace

Tony

Last edited by tonybones2112; 03-15-2009 at 09:34 PM. Reason: misspelling
  #66  
Old 03-15-2009, 10:39 PM
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When all is said and done, I still stand by my belief that the body of Christ, the Church, is currently espoused (engaged) to be married to Jesus Christ in heaven above at a future time. The main proof texts for this teaching are Pauline and are 2 Corinthians 11:2, Romans 7:4, and Ephesians 5:21-33. Hence why I believe the "Lamb's wife" (the Lamb being Jesus Christ) in the book of Revelation is the Church, NOT Israel. I have yet to see any clear cut scripture which shows that Israel marries the Lord Jesus Christ.

Perhaps the greatest reason I have not changed my mind about this doctrine is that those here who have debated against it have not supported their argument well, especially where some take the proof texts I mention above and make them all FIGURATIVE or only applicable to the group of people whom Paul is addressing at that time, example: In 2 Corinthians 11:2 when Paul said "I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ" it was only meant for that audience of believers in Corinth, which I disagree with, I believe it applies to all of us.

To those of you who have only recently started denying that Christ will marry the Church, please consider the fact that you DID believe it for many years prior to coming to your current conclusion, and maybe cut the rest of us a bit of slack. The truth WILL come out in the end, maybe not this side of glory.
  #67  
Old 03-16-2009, 02:14 PM
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Kevin, I don't think language like this is very becoming:

Quote:
so go blow it out your nose because I never said that the Church was taken out of His body.
and

Quote:
so you guys can go eat a sock for saying I'm twisting the scriptures and inserting words when you're the ones who are.
That first one really caught me off guard as it was in answer to my post, which I believe is the only post I've made in this thread (excluding this post).

You do well showing scriptures to support your position, but language like this is not very friendly.
  #68  
Old 03-16-2009, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Winman View Post
Kevin, I don't think language like this is very becoming:

and

That first one really caught me off guard as it was in answer to my post, which I believe is the only post I've made in this thread (excluding this post).

You do well showing scriptures to support your position, but language like this is not very friendly.
Wow, no kidding.

Stephen
  #69  
Old 03-16-2009, 03:33 PM
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Sorry, that wasn't aimed at you, but I don't take kindly to people trying to make stuff up that I never said, and what these Christians are doing is even more malicious than using "harsh" language.
  #70  
Old 03-17-2009, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian View Post
When all is said and done, I still stand by my belief that the body of Christ, the Church, is currently espoused (engaged) to be married to Jesus Christ in heaven above at a future time. The main proof texts for this teaching are Pauline and are 2 Corinthians 11:2, Romans 7:4, and Ephesians 5:21-33. Hence why I believe the "Lamb's wife" (the Lamb being Jesus Christ) in the book of Revelation is the Church, NOT Israel. I have yet to see any clear cut scripture which shows that Israel marries the Lord Jesus Christ.
Brother Kiwi, you have not addressed any of the Scriptures we presented. What you did is force Pauline writings into Johanine epistles. To me, that is definitely not rightly dividing the word of truth.

Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But for the sake of a healthy exchange of ideas, would you please address every Scripture with the word "bride"?

1. Here are clear-cult Scriptures that "the bride" is associated with Israel, and not once ever associated with the Church. (I'm 100% sure there is no Scripture that ever calls the church the "bride".)

Jeremiah 2:32 Can a maid forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,


2. Here is a clear-cut Scripture where Israel will have a future marriage with God.
Isaiah 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

3. Now, I want you to interpret LITERALLY who are being referred to LITERALLY in those passages.

4. Would you also please give a definite Scripture that would ever associate the word "bride" to the Church?

5. Or, you may choose to challenge these facts:
1) "Wife" is associated with the Church in Ephesians.
"Wife" is associated with Israel in the OT and in Revelation.
2) "Married" is associated with the Church in Romans.
"Married" is associated with Israel in the OT and in the Gospels.
3) "Virgin" is associated with the Church in 1 Corinthians.
"Virgin" is associated with Israel in the OT.
4) "Bride" is NOT ONCE associated with the Church anywhere, and NOT ONCE mentioned by Paul the apostle to the Gentiles.
"Bride" is ALMOST ALWAYS associated with Israel, and ALWAYS mentioned by the prophets and the apostles to the Jews.

Furthermore, all references with the words "wife" associated with the Church is in the PRESENT and none in the future tense. All references with the words "bride" in the FUTURE TENSE has Israel in the context.

In other words, we have shown all the Scripture concerning "the bride" and found it associated almost always to Israel but no once to the church. On the other hand, you have neither addressed those Scripture, nor were you able to produce one definite verse in Scripture that calls the church a "bride".

For the love of Christ,
Biblestudent
 

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