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  #41  
Old 03-11-2009, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by stephanos View Post
Yes I know that Job is speaking of the past. I was using that verse to shew that "sons of God" is a reference to angels. Jesus also said that we'd be like the angels after the resurrection:

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Matthew 22:30 KJV)

So maybe the reason we're not mentioned as a Church after Revelation 3 is because we've become angels.

Peace and Love,
Stephen
Stephen,

In the resurrection, or at the Rapture, we physically receive the Image of God, the same image that Adam was originally created in. In Luke, Adam is called "the son of God," and he was created in God's image, but in Genesis 3, Adam begat Seth who was after his own image. Because of the fall of man and sin entering into the world, we are born in Adam's image, but reborn in God's image (spiritually).

In the rapture and coinciding resurrection of the dead, we receive our glorified bodies, which are physical images of God. That's what a "son of God" is: an image or "copy" of God. The angels are simply copies of God, Jesus was the image of the Invisible God, and when we are born again, we are made in the image of God.

In eternity, we are in effect "little Jesuses," or identical copies of Him, which is why Jesus said we would be as the angels of God, not being married: we are His image!

So no, we don't become angels, though we do become LIKE angels.
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  #42  
Old 03-11-2009, 01:40 PM
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Zechariah 12:10. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.


"AS" - This is another SIMILE describing God's Second Coming to Israel at the END of the Tribulation Period. Note that the "wife" got ready at the Second Coming (Rev. 19).
The Second Coming has the BIG "DAY" for Israel:
Zech 12:3. And in that day ...
4. In that day, ...
6. In that day ...
8. In that day s...
9. And it shall come to pass in that day, ...


Zechariah 14
1. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, ...
4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, ...
6. And it shall come to pass in that day, ...
7. But it shall be one day ...
8. And it shall be in that day, ...
9....in that day ...


The "kingdom of heaven" parables are all pointing to just that--the coming of the kingdom of heaven.
  #43  
Old 03-11-2009, 02:47 PM
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"Bride" Isa 49:18; 61:10; 62:5; Jer 2:32; 7:34; 16:9; 25:10; 33:11; Joe 2:16; Joh 3:29; Re 18:23; 21:2,9; 22:17

Isaiah 49:18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, AS A BRIDE doeth.
Context: Isaiah 49:7 "Israel"; Isaiah 49:14, "Zion"

Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and AS A BRIDE adorneth herself with her jewels.

I'm not really sure if the "me" here refers to Isaiah, but this is spoken in the context of Israel being blessed (Isa. 61:3-11) after the "day of vengeance" (Isa. 6:2).

Isaiah 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land BEULAH: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be MARRIED.
5 For AS a young man MARRIETH a VIRGIN, so shall thy sons marry thee: and AS the bridegroom rejoiceth over the BRIDE, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

CONTEXT: Zion (Isa 62:1) and Jerusalem (Isa 62:1,6) at the MILLENNIUM. Isaiah 62:6 "I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,"
METAPHOR: "Thy LAND" shall be "MARRIED".
SIMILE ("AS"): JERUSALEM is AS a "VIRGIN" and a "BRIDE" in the Millennium afterbeing "Forsaken" (Isa. 62:4).

Jeremiah 2:32 Can a maid forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.
CONTEXT: Israel (Jer. 2:14)

Jeremiah 7:34 Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.

"Bride" here does not necessarily refer to Judah and Jerusalem but spoken in this context. See also Jer 16:9; 25:10; 33:11.

Joel 2:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

"Bride" also does not necessarily refer to Zion, but it is mentioned with Zion in the context.

John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

"Friend of the bridegroom" - John the Baptist
(How do we know it's John the Baptist? The "friend of the bridegroom... REJOICETH greatly because of the bridegroom's voice", and John says, "This MY JOY therefore is fulfilled.")

"Bridegroom" - Jesus Christ
(I think it's obvious to everybody, with all Scriptural support, that the bridegroom here is Christ.)

"Bride" - Now, WHO IS THE "BRIDE"?
John 3:29 is not about the "bride" but about the "BRIDEGROOM". John is identifying who the BRIDEGROOM is.
Who is the "Bridegroom" John? John says, "He that hath the bride IS the bridegroom."
John assumes that the BRIDE is already there. The BRIDEGROOM is identified to be the One with the BRIDE. Then, who is the bride? To whom is John making the Bridegroom known?
John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that HE should be made manifest to ISRAEL, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

John the Apostle recorded the words of John the Baptist in John 3:29. The next time we see the word "bride" is in the book of Revelation written by the same person (Apostle John). Notice how the Church Age epistles was skipped over. There is no mention of the word "bride" in the New Testament except in JOHN and REVELATION, both books written by the same author.

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
The word "bride" here, as in some OT passages concerning Jerusalem mentioned above, is not a reference to "Babylon" although mentioned in that context. ("Babylon the Great" is, of course, a counterfeit "bride" of a counterfeit "christ".)

1. John the Baptist defined "bride" (John 3:29) to be "Israel" (John 1:31).
2. John the Apostle defined "bride" (John 3:29) to be "the holy city", "that great city", "New Jerusalem".


Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared AS A BRIDE adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the BRIDE, the Lamb's WIFE.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had
TWELVE gates, and at the gates TWELVE angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the TWELVE tribes of the children of Israel:
14 And the wall of the city had
TWELVE foundations, and in them the names of the TWELVE apostles of the Lamb.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: ...
TWELVE thousand furlongs...
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an HUNDRED AND FORTY AND FOUR cubits, ...
(12 times 12)
19-20. And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; ...the TWELFTH, an amethyst.
21 And the
TWELVEgates were TWELVE pearls; ...
Notice what were absent from John's revelation (Rev. 21):
1. He mentions "twelve apostles" but has no mention of THE ONE APOSTLE OF THE GENTILES.
2. He mentions "twelve tribes of the children of Israel" but has no mention of the ONE CHURCH, WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST.

With all the SCRIPTURE in front of me, who am I to "force" my pre-conceived idea into what it does not say? With all the few commentaries and theology books available to me eight years ago that say in unison that John 3:29 or Revelation 19 and 21 is "church", I decided to believe GOD'S WORD over man's.

Last edited by Biblestudent; 03-11-2009 at 02:55 PM.
  #44  
Old 03-11-2009, 04:05 PM
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Stephen,

In the resurrection, or at the Rapture, we physically receive the Image of God, the same image that Adam was originally created in. In Luke, Adam is called "the son of God," and he was created in God's image, but in Genesis 3, Adam begat Seth who was after his own image. Because of the fall of man and sin entering into the world, we are born in Adam's image, but reborn in God's image (spiritually).

In the rapture and coinciding resurrection of the dead, we receive our glorified bodies, which are physical images of God. That's what a "son of God" is: an image or "copy" of God. The angels are simply copies of God, Jesus was the image of the Invisible God, and when we are born again, we are made in the image of God.

In eternity, we are in effect "little Jesuses," or identical copies of Him, which is why Jesus said we would be as the angels of God, not being married: we are His image!

So no, we don't become angels, though we do become LIKE angels.
I agree with what you're saying here. However I don't think we'll be identical copies of Christ, as in a mirror image of Him. But I think our bodies will be "like" His.

Peace and Love,
Stephen
  #45  
Old 03-11-2009, 08:36 PM
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I've often heard the term "Bride of Christ", but have never thought too much about it and currently don't have a position on it so these are just a couple of observations.
John 3
26. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. 27. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. 28. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29. He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30. He must increase, but I must decrease.
Looking at the context it's obvious John the Baptist is "the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him," and "rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice:". John was the one sent to prepare the way of the Lord and as a witness of Him so when Jesus came John could say "my joy therefore is fulfilled". If John was not the friend, but as an Israelite a member of the bride of Christ, he would not have said "He (Jesus) must increase, but I must decrease".

John 1
29. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31. And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.


This passage doesn't say anything about a bride or bridegroom. It says "that he (Jesus) should be made manifest to Israel". Was He made manifest to Israel as their bridegroom? Wouldn't it make more sense to say He was made manifest as their Messiah (John 1:41) or their King (Matthew 4:17, 21:1-5)?
  #46  
Old 03-12-2009, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by CKG View Post
Looking at the context it's obvious John the Baptist is "the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him," and "rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice:". John was the one sent to prepare the way of the Lord and as a witness of Him so when Jesus came John could say "my joy therefore is fulfilled". If John was not the friend, but as an Israelite a member of the bride of Christ, he would not have said "He (Jesus) must increase, but I must decrease".

<b>
John 1
29. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31. And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
</b>

This passage doesn't say anything about a bride or bridegroom. It says "that he (Jesus) should be made manifest to Israel". Was He made manifest to Israel as their bridegroom? Wouldn't it make more sense to say He was made manifest as their Messiah (John 1:41) or their King (Matthew 4:17, 21:1-5)?
I made this explanation:
John 3:29 - John the Baptist is identifying to the bride who the bridegroom is, just like what He did IN JOHN CHAPTER ONE - that Christ should be made manifest to Israel.

Your explanation:
John 3:29 - John the Baptist is the friend of the bridegroom who prepares the way of the Lord (and that can also be seen in John 1:23).

So both of us used John 1 to explain the meaning of John 3:29. John 1 does not say that "the bridegroom be made manifest to the bride", nor does it say that "the friend of the bridegroom prepares the way for the bridegroom"; but we know that John 1 is indeed the CONTEXT of John 3:29. No doubt about it.
  #47  
Old 03-12-2009, 03:42 AM
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Great Work and study Biblestudent!!!! I agree 100%
  #48  
Old 03-12-2009, 08:37 AM
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This is a good study. I like being challenged and I like to base my beliefs on the Scriptures and not just because someone said so. I appreciate the good research that goes on on this forum. I've read several articles on the bride and there seem to be two main verses that stand out as far as is the bride the church or Israel.


And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. (Revelation 21:9)

and

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. (2 Corinthians 11:2)
  #49  
Old 03-12-2009, 05:54 PM
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These are considered supporting verse. the problem is there is no sound doctrinal verse on to which you can hang them. the two verse you quote are of two different events and Rev 2 needs to have the previous verses added where you see who and what the Bride is. and remember no Bride in mentioned in 2Cor. this is a private interpretation that has been handed down from the RC that was kept in the reformation unto today
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Old 03-12-2009, 06:03 PM
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Yes, that's right, Bro. Chette. That's what I've seen in Scripture that made me really reconsider my position back then.
 

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