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  #31  
Old 03-10-2009, 05:09 PM
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I have a theory as to where the Church goes after Revelation 3.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:11-13 KJV)

Could he be speaking of "sons of God" in the context of:

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. (Job 1:6 KJV)

My only hang up is:

But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? (Hebrews 1:13-14 KJV)

Granted, Hebrews is written to the Jews, but does that not mean we are not heirs of salvation? Could it be that we become ordinary, run of the mill angels when we are raptured? Or are we different then them? If we are transformed into angels at the rapture then we must be them with the Lamb in Revelation 14:10 and perhaps in other passages with "angels".

What say ye?

Peace and Love,
Stephen
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  #32  
Old 03-10-2009, 05:40 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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I have always heard that Isaac and Rebekah (Rebecca) are a picture of Christ and the Church.

Gen 24:1 And Abraham was old, and well stricken in age: and the LORD had blessed Abraham in all things. 2 And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh: 3 And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell: 4 But thou shalt go unto my country, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son Isaac.

Rebekah was a virgin

Gen 24:16 And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up.

Down to the well= dead to sin
and filled her pitcher= the Holy Spirit
and came up= raised up with Christ

Gen 24:27 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of my master Abraham, who hath not left destitute my master of his mercy and his truth: I being in the way, the LORD led me to the house of my master's brethren.

I think this is more support that the Church is both the body and bride of Christ. Abraham would only accept a blood relative (member of the body) as a bride for his son.

And Eph 5:30-32 seems very clear

Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

And I am no Bible scholar whatsoever, but I always believed we would be in the Lord's army in Revelation

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

To me, this army upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean describes the Church, those washed pure by the blood of Christ.

Last edited by Winman; 03-10-2009 at 05:50 PM.
  #33  
Old 03-10-2009, 08:46 PM
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Stephan,

IN Job, the word WAS means this event of the sons of God was in the past not in the future. Are you sure the churches are Christians churches of this current dispensation? remember there is the church in the wilderness which is Israel, the churches f the Heathens (Acts) and the church of God, the body of Christ).

Winman,

you may have supporting verse but you still have no concrete verse form the Apostle to the Gentiles, Paul, for this doctrine to be applied to the church of God the Boy of Christ.

Types are to give way to clear scripture and if there is no clear scripture then they are not sound doctrines but examples of life for our learning. for all that was written beforehand is for our learning i.e. the book of Ruth, Genesis et al Old Testament.
  #34  
Old 03-10-2009, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
Stephan,

IN Job, the word WAS means this event of the sons of God was in the past not in the future. Are you sure the churches are Christians churches of this current dispensation? remember there is the church in the wilderness which is Israel, the churches f the Heathens (Acts) and the church of God, the body of Christ).

Winman,

you may have supporting verse but you still have no concrete verse form the Apostle to the Gentiles, Paul, for this doctrine to be applied to the church of God the Boy of Christ.

Types are to give way to clear scripture and if there is no clear scripture then they are not sound doctrines but examples of life for our learning. for all that was written beforehand is for our learning i.e. the book of Ruth, Genesis et al Old Testament.
Yes I know that Job is speaking of the past. I was using that verse to shew that "sons of God" is a reference to angels. Jesus also said that we'd be like the angels after the resurrection:

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Matthew 22:30 KJV)

So maybe the reason we're not mentioned as a Church after Revelation 3 is because we've become angels.

Peace and Love,
Stephen
  #35  
Old 03-10-2009, 10:35 PM
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If the Lord comes tomorrow and you are gathered unto him. you will not be resurrected you are translated or taken bodily but most definitely not resurrected.

the resurrection Jesus is talking about if for those of his days who are now dead in Christ or who had died before and wont be resurrected until the second resurrection. again be careful of the AS They will be AS angels not that they will be an angel. you used the word like angels that is good but what is like angels? eternal? Males?(which is why they don't marry in the resurrection), holy?

the church of God is not mentioned as we were not mentioned before the cross we slip into a mystery form (for lack of a better term). we are no longer in the 24/7 TQ so no mention of us in the Bible as in all events that took or will take place out side the 24/7TQ are, except for Gen1:1, 2; Job 1:6; Isa 14:12-14;Rev 21-22 and like verses and those for a reason.

A good study if day one created the 24/7TQ then go through the Scriptures and see if you can place everything inside the 24/7TQ of bible scriptures. Job 1:6 where did it take place in the 24/7 TQ or in eternity? when and where did Lucifer fall inside the 24/7 TQ or in Eternity? Where is the New Jerusalem in the 24/7 TQ or n Eternity? When did the Sons of God shout for at the establishment of the Earth in the 24/7 TQ or eternity?

I found things that happened outside the 24/7TQ that are mentioned in the Bible there is very little detail of the entire event. but all those things that did take place in the 24/7 TQ you can find in detail. the sons of God in Gen 6 (were angels too) and what they were doing is detailed. While how they came about is not in detail i.e. their fall. while God's word tells us the sons of God (angels) came to present themselves before God it doesn't tell us where or why or when. it took place outside the 24/7 TQ. while we are told the New Jerusalem will be on the earth no details as to what goes on inside the city and the lifestyles of the inhabitants because it is not in the 24/7 TQ. however what it does reveal concerns those who are now in a 24/7 TQ and come out of it.

Last edited by chette777; 03-10-2009 at 10:55 PM.
  #36  
Old 03-10-2009, 11:59 PM
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Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

What is this talking about? It says the kingdom of heaven so it must only be talking about the Millennium?

Last edited by kevinvw; 03-11-2009 at 12:17 AM.
  #37  
Old 03-11-2009, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinvw View Post
Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

What is this talking about? It says the kingdom of heaven so it must only be talking about the Millennium?
Honestly, I really like the question, brother.

Certainly, it does NOT say "church" anywhere. This is the problem of almost every commentary (and song) I've read (or liked to sing). They would say the "pearl of great price" is the church.

The Bible means what it says: "The KINGDOM of heaven is LIKE ...one pearl of great price." If some suppose it means something else other than what says, then I'd rather believe what I read regardless of what others think it should mean that it does not say.

Many seem to force everything from Genesis to Revelation and make the passages refer to the church; but when they hear the "other side" that applies most passages in Scripture to the millennial kingdom (as demanded by the context), they would have a problem with it. What's wrong?

For example: Eve is the church, Rebekah is the church, Ruth is the church, salt of the earth is the church, light of the world is the church, pearl of great price is the church, etc. etc.

I have no problem with that as long as they are a "TYPE" of the church, but not DOCTRINE FOR or a DIRECT REFERENCE TO the church. CONTEXT determines meaning.

Now, if Ruth is a type of something else other than the church, the salt of the earth a type of someone else other than the church, the light of the world a reference to another group of people other than the church, the pearl of great price is a reference to the KINGDOM and not to the church, why is there a problem?
  #38  
Old 03-11-2009, 08:43 AM
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Like a Calvinist with a "TULIP fixation" (as Dr. Laurence Vance put it), there are two sides of the coin in the issue of "rightly dividing the word of truth".

The one side has a "CHURCH fixation", and the other side has an "ISRAEL fixation" or a "KINGDOM fixation". The former would accuse the latter as "Hyperdispensationalists", and the latter would accuse the former to be "Wrongly Dividing (or not all dividing) the Word of Truth".

I tested both lenses; but to avoid both extremes, I settled for these:
1. CONTEXT determines meaning.
2. The Bible DEFINES itself.
(I'm not promoting a man "above that which is written", but, as always, if I've given credit to others, these two points I first heard from an old tape by Dr. Reese. These two principles I apply in every Bible study, and they sure work.)
  #39  
Old 03-11-2009, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winman View Post
I have always heard that Isaac and Rebekah (Rebecca) are a picture of Christ and the Church.
No problem with types. Types are simply illustrations, but not all illustrations fit 100%. Not only that, some illustrations are far-fetched.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winman View Post
I think this is more support that the Church is both the body and bride of Christ. Abraham would only accept a blood relative (member of the body) as a bride for his son.
That's where I think the problem is. Nobody in the Bible anywhere has ever called the church a "bride" (and how can Paul the revelator of the church not mention that word one time).
Fact 1. The Bible compares the church (Body of Christ) to a "wife" as well as to a "virgin".
Fact 2. The Bible compares Israel to a "wife" and to a "BRIDE".
I have no problem the Bible telling me that the "wife" of Ephesians 5 is the church, and I sure believe the Bible (at least now after refusing to believe it a long time ago) when it tells me that the "bride" of John 3:29 is Israel (John 1:31) and the "bride", "the Lamb's wife" in Revelation 21, is the "holy Jerusalem" (21:10), associated with "the twelve tribes of the children of Israel" (21:12).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winman View Post
And I am no Bible scholar whatsoever, but I always believed we would be in the Lord's army in Revelation

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

To me, this army upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean describes the Church, those washed pure by the blood of Christ.
1. Angels are clothed in white, and they are armies of heaven. Matthew says they will be with Christ at the Second Coming.
2. Israel (also called "saints") will be clothed in white, and they are also armies of God. The Lord cometh with his saints at the Second Coming.
3. The Church will be clothed in white, and they are also soldiers of the Lord. They shall "ever be with the Lord".

That angels and Israel will be with Christ at His Second Coming has been seen in OT and NT PROPHECY, but that the church (the "Body of Christ") will be with him has been hidden in a MYSTERY and revealed only through Paul. (Stamites have misused this great truth, all for the sake of excluding baptism from, what they say, "Mystery Program".)

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

John did not tell me anything about the "church" in Revelation 19 and 21, but Paul did tell me that I'd be there (1 Thessalonians 4:18).
  #40  
Old 03-11-2009, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinvw View Post
Mat 13:45 It says the kingdom of heaven so it must only be talking about the Millennium?
Why do you think all kingdom of heaven parables are talking about the millennium?

This "who is the bride" thread is certainly challenging to me as I just assumed the church was the bride of Christ, but I had never really studied up on it. If Israel is the bride then the following doesn't sound like a groom coming for His bride.
Zechariah 12
1. The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

2. Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

3. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

4. In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

5. And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.

6. In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

7. The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

8. In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

9. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
Zechariah 14
1. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7. But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
 

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