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Old 06-03-2008, 04:17 PM
Stvvv1611 Stvvv1611 is offline
 
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Default Secret Rapture or a Mystery?

Wasn't sure which of the two threads (Secret Rapture or Rapture) to post this under so I decided both.

One often approaches a passage of scripture with a preconceived idea implanted within his or her skull (thinking process). Such ‘may’ be the case with this subject, as it was once with me. No… I’m not going to resolve all debate relating to this ‘mysterious’ subject, but perhaps I’ll present another angle of approach for consideration.

The following two passages are most commonly referenced regarding this secret or mystery rapture:

1 Cor 15:49-53 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Thess 4:13-17 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Passages above refer to a secret or mystery rapture; correct? Read the passages again, but this time first asking the question to what exactly the mystery presented in these passages is.

Ready? Okay… first the question:

“What exactly is the mystery, presented by Paul, in 1 Co 15 and 1 Thess 4?”

Now… read the texts with that question in mind looking for the simplest and most concise answer as possible. I have a few things highlighted for focus sake.

1 Cor 15:49-53 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Thess 4:13-17 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Hoping you took a stab at my request, did you come up with something similar to my answer to same question?

The mystery is: At the last trump, we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, along with the dead in Christ, shall be caught up together to meet the Lord for ever to be with Him.

What did you come up with? A secret or mystery rapture? I came up with a mystery regarding those who are alive and remain to the coming of the Lord? See a difference?

Let’s consider a few things. The bible has much to say about the return or 2nd coming of Christ (Ac 1:11; Rev 1:7-8), and also speaks of resurrection ‘from the dead’ (Jn 2:22, 12:1; 1Co 15:12-13) as well as resurrection ‘of the dead’ (Ac 24:15, 21). But, how many passages are we familiar with that deals explicitly with what happens to those who are alive and remain at the return or 2nd coming of Christ? Is this not the real issue or mystery presented in these passages? Other than those who died ‘in Christ’… the mystery concerns alive remaining people to be changed… not the common theme of resurrection that we’re so familiar with throughout the scripture! The mystery is more about what happens to alive remaining people at the last trump than a ‘secret’ or ‘mystery’ rapture.

There are two things that need qualified in these texts and then contrasted to drive home the point I’m making. These passages deal with those who are ‘in Christ’ (1Co 1:2; 15:18, 22, 1Thess 1:1; 4:14) and in regard to the ‘kingdom of God’ which flesh and blood cannot inherit (1Co 15:50).

I’ll now contrast this people group who are ‘in Christ’ alive and remaining, associated with the ‘kingdom of God’, to another people group at the return of the King:

Matt 25:31-46 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations
: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal
.

Without question, the time period of above text is post tribulation and pre-millennium. The tribulation has just ended and nations are gathered and judged based on their treatment of Christ’s brethren… the Jew (Nation of Israel) during the tribulation. The sheep inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world and the goats away into everlasting punishment. Notice carefully… there is no change from corruption to incorruption or from mortal to immortality, for these sheep, because we’re now dealing with the kingdom of heaven (Mt 25:1, 14)… not the kingdom of God! The kingdom of heaven is the earthly facet of the kingdom of God and is the emphasis of Matthew’s gospel. I saw some excellent posts somewhere on this forum distinguishing the two and know that George did an excellent job showing the contrasts; I’ll just state the fact and move on.

To further prove distinction and show contrast between these people groups at the return of Christ, I’ll trace these nations through the 1,000 year reign of Christ and beyond. Because these sheep nations are yet flesh and blood (can reproduce) there arises a rebellion at the end of the earthly reign of Christ that is then put down:

Rev 20:7-10 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Obviously, not all within these nations were deceived and nations are part of the eternal scheme of God in the future:

Rev 21:23-22:5 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. 22:1-5 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Bible sense tells us that we are dealing with two distinct people groups in these passages at the return of Christ. The one people group who are ‘in Christ’ alive and remaining to be changed from corruptible to incorruption, and from mortal to immortality… the other rewarded for their favor to Christ’s brethren during the tribulation. One is associated with the heavenly aspect of the kingdom of God while the other with the earthly aspect of the Christ’s kingdom. Those who are ‘in Christ’ will be able to walk through doors while those associated with the nations will bump their heads trying to accomplish same feat. An even more distinction to be made is that our eternal life is ‘in Christ’ while the nations will have to partake of the tree of life… back to the garden for the nations!

I’ve made my point contrasting these two groups, but before ending this post I must mention a third people group without hope at Christ’s return:

2 Thess 2:1-12 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish
; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Unlike the nations, which seem to be given a 2nd chance because of their treatment of Israel during the tribulation, this people group has no such luck.

No… I haven’t resolved (or addressed) all the controversial and doctrinal issues surrounding the return of Christ and a ‘rapture’, but perhaps I’ve added a different or new perspective for a few readers.

Of course, there will always be debate over whether ‘in a moment’, ‘in the twinkling of an eye’, ‘at the last trump’ are all one event or 3 separate segments of Christ’s return… and, if the ‘last trump’ is a sound that ends the church age (even though there’s no evidence of a first trump starting it), or if it is associated with the last trumpet in Revelation.
Rev. 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Those who are alive and remain are alive and remain through and to what? The church age? The tribulation?

There are some serious issues surrounding this subject… but perhaps we’ll never get it completely figured out.
Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Here’s a challenging question regarding the return of Christ given to the Apostles early Acts. The passage below… are we to read Paul’s mystery into it though Paul didn’t reveal it till some time later? Remember, Peter and company were waiting for the return of Christ to share in His reign judging the 12 tribes of Israel (Mt 19:28; Ac 1:6).

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Now... what is the mystery of 1Cor 15 & 1Thess 4?

Stvvv1611
2 Timothy 2:15

Rev 22:20 … Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
  #2  
Old 06-03-2008, 04:28 PM
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Diligent Diligent is offline
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Admin note: rather than have duplicate posts, I've moved this to its own thread.
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Old 06-03-2008, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Now... what is the mystery of 1Cor 15 & 1Thess 4?
Is that a rhetorical question?
I thought you did a good job answering that question!

Anyway, the sum parts of the whole of God's separate eternal plans to different people, nations, and His Church (Jews, Gentiles + Christians), are grasped finitely by dispensational study, rightly dividing the word of God. Anything less is confusing.
How we get there, in the air, or resurrected from the dead, is the great hope!

Is Pentecost the dividing line for the Church age?
John the Baptist(pre-Pentecost, Church age saint) makes a disclaimer of being part of the Church here:

John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

Hope this isn't too much of a rabbit trail. My intention is to stimulate discussion on "who ends up where, and when?", regarding this quote:

Quote:
These passages deal with those who are ‘in Christ’ (1Co 1:2; 15:18, 22, 1Thess 1:1; 4:14) and in regard to the ‘kingdom of God’ which flesh and blood cannot inherit (1Co 15:50).

I’ll now contrast this people group who are ‘in Christ’ alive and remaining, associated with the ‘kingdom of God’, to another people group at the return of the King
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Old 06-03-2008, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Is Pentecost the dividing line for the Church age?
John the Baptist(pre-Pentecost, Church age saint) makes a disclaimer of being part of the Church here
Let me clear that up. Should be:

John the Baptist, pre-Pentecost/Church age saint.
(places him under dispensation of Law)

Punctuation matters!
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Old 06-04-2008, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debau View Post
Let me clear that up. Should be:

John the Baptist, pre-Pentecost/Church age saint.
(places him under dispensation of Law)

Punctuation matters!
Aloha brother Debau,

There are as many "theories" about the rapture (a "mystery" - when, where, and how), and the church (a "great mystery" - when, where, and how) as there are dispensationalist' "scholars". (Darby, Cronin, Stam, Bullinger, O'Hair, Baker, Moore, Watkins, Pember, Schofield, Larkin, Eade, etc,. etc., - there's lots more) and some "issues" have never been "nailed down" completely.

However, there is one thing for sure, as the following verses will clearly demonstrate: At this particular moment in time during the Lord Jesus Christ's earthly ministry - His disciples (including the 12 apostles) were described by the Lord Himself as being the "children" of the "bridechamber" - NOT THE BRIDE!

Matthew 9:15
And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.

Mark 2:19 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.

Luke 5:34 And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them?

Just exactly when they became a part of the bride is a "mystery", which many men (with much more "schooling" and more brilliant than I), have wrestled with for years. Since I have never been able determine some of the "fine points" of these issues, I just leave the "guessing", "supposition", and "speculation" up to others, and move on to those things that I can discern. {Perhaps - the "weightier matters"?}
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Old 06-06-2008, 05:58 AM
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One definition of a mystery is a secret hidden in the past but now revealed.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: ...

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, ...
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There is one thing the Apostle Paul would not have us to be ignorant of, and he showed us this mystery. The mystery here is the resurrection of the dead and their rapture with those who are alive and remain. This mystery is revealed to be happening in a "moment", in the "twinkling of an eye" at the "last trump".
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Old 06-27-2008, 12:26 AM
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the Body Mystery that is Jew and Gentile in Christ, was started when Penetcost came but was not revealed until Paul got it at sinai some years later. just because something is not revealed doesn't mean it didn't exist. the Body existed and they became part of that body it just hadn't been revealed until later.

so if something can exist even though the Apostles did know about it, their not knowing about it would make no difference about its existance. something can exist without the knowledge of anyone.

I hope that didn't confuse any of you to much
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Old 06-04-2008, 02:08 PM
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I thought that it was already made quite clear that the mystery is not a mysterious occurence.

Anyway,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stvvv1611 View Post
Those who are alive and remain are alive and remain through and to what? The church age? The tribulation?
I think you're trying to read between the lines too much. The alive and remain are similies...(as in, "we which remain alive..." in contrast of the dead or asleep in Jesus)

It seemed (while reading your post) that you were opening the door for more than what the title suggests (or maybe I'm reading between the lines too much!)
 

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