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  #21  
Old 07-21-2009, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Amanda S. View Post
I will agree that we should use Biblical terms. We don't always because we are products of our society and we tend to pick up the lingo of the day. I heard a preacher once preach a sermon on this very subject. For instance you called God's Word inspired. Technically it is not inspired, but is given by inspiration. The word rapture does not appear in the Bible yet everyone know exactly what we are referring to. And there are others.
There is a big difference in this case. Whereas "rapture," "trinity," etc are non-Biblical words, the word "shepherd" is a Biblical word. Therefore, we can not be at liberty to assign that word to a person/office/doctrine that the Bible does not.
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  #22  
Old 07-21-2009, 12:29 PM
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Greetings Bro. Forrest,

I will agree that we should use Biblical terms. We don't always because we are products of our society and we tend to pick up the lingo of the day. I heard a preacher once preach a sermon on this very subject. For instance you called God's Word inspired. Technically it is not inspired, but is given by inspiration. The word rapture does not appear in the Bible yet everyone know exactly what we are referring to. And there are others.

Having said that however, you said a pastor is called an overseer.

I Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.


It's still not a stretch to call a pastor a shepherd.
Wrong. I said a pastor is referred to as an overseer based on the scripture you specifically referenced. In your post # 14 you are the one who quoted Acts 20:28-29, not me. The Bible does call the "Elder" an overseer not shepherd. My point? In my opinion, the pastor is never called a shepherd in the Bible. We should not call the Pastor of a church a shepherd when the Bible does not call him that.

Quote:
You wrote:...I do think that a Pastor is the shepherd over his local church assembly while Christ is the Chief Shepherd over all believers.

Acts 20:28-29 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Quote:
You also wrote: For instance you called God's Word inspired. Technically it is not inspired, but is given by inspiration. The word rapture does not appear in the Bible yet everyone know exactly what we are referring to. And there are others.
Since all scripture is given by inspiration of God then God inspired it, right? Therefore, it is very Biblical to say that all scripture which is inspired by God is inspired.

Now, if you would like to expand the subject of this thread we can. I agree with you, we should use the words that scripture uses concerning our being "caught up" together with Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Quote:
I will agree that we should use Biblical terms. We don't always because we are products of our society and we tend to pick up the lingo of the day.
Since you agree, let's make the effort to use Biblical words and be the peculiar people we are called to be, zealous of good works. We are not products of our society. The Bible says we are mortal and corruptible people that will one day put on immortality and incorruption.

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Our Heavenly Father authored words.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Psalms 119:103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Words are crucial when they are God's words. Therefore, on this Bible forum we should purpose to use Bible words!
  #23  
Old 07-21-2009, 12:34 PM
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And while we are being specific:
The I Peter 5 passage is speaking to "elders" (plural), which is the broadest, inclusive title given to church "leaders". There is no reference to individual pastors being over local churches. Within the church are "elder" believers who have been given to responsibility of leading by "ensample" those who are the "younger" (I Peter 5:5)

P.S. As prospective, I am a Baptist pastor. I am a leader, but not the boss, of the church in which God has placed me.
  #24  
Old 07-21-2009, 12:41 PM
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Amanda S. Amanda S. is offline
 
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Wrong. I said a pastor is referred to as an overseer based on the scripture you specifically referenced. In your post # 14 you are the one who quoted Acts 20:28-29, not me. The Bible does call the "Elder" an overseer not shepherd. My point? In my opinion, the pastor is never called a shepherd in the Bible. We should not call the Pastor of a church a shepherd when the Bible does not call him that.

OK...I fold.

If you can oversee the sheep, feed them, be an esample until the CHIEF Shepherd comes and still not be a type of shepherd whether expressly called that or not then I have nothing else to say.
  #25  
Old 07-21-2009, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Brother Tim View Post
And while we are being specific:
The I Peter 5 passage is speaking to "elders" (plural), which is the broadest, inclusive title given to church "leaders". There is no reference to individual pastors being over local churches. Within the church are "elder" believers who have been given to responsibility of leading by "ensample" those who are the "younger" (I Peter 5:5)

P.S. As prospective, I am a Baptist pastor. I am a leader, but not the boss, of the church in which God has placed me.
Quote:
P.S. As prospective, I am a Baptist pastor. I am a leader, but not the boss, of the church in which God has placed me.
It's good you know that, brother Tim. Simply a called servant who should:

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
  #26  
Old 07-21-2009, 01:26 PM
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BAAA!






  #27  
Old 07-21-2009, 07:57 PM
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Amanda S. Amanda S. is offline
 
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Greetings Bro. Forrest

Quote:
In my opinion, the pastor is never called a shepherd in the Bible.
No, but a shepherd is called a pastor.

Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Why would a pastor be brutish over their own sheep? Because when put in a leadership roll often one gets the big head, and dictatorial as some have suggested can happen.


I Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.


Thus this verse. The pastor/shepherd is not to lord it over, so to speak, the flock under his leadership, but as stated - an ensample. Even the very nature of sheep is to follow...there is no need to be brutish towards sheep as they will simply follow.

Bro. Tim you said you thought of yourself as a leader not a shepherd...as a shepherd one of your jobs is to be a leader...not like a big mean and tough boss...

Is 40:11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Psalm 1-2 The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

I said I was done with this thread but I couldn't resist a couple more comments after studying a bit more.

Forgive me
  #28  
Old 07-21-2009, 09:23 PM
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No, but a shepherd is called a pastor.

Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.
Help me out here. Where does that verse call a shepherd a pastor?

I'm being sarcastic -- I know what your point is. But you are reading into the passage.

The Shepherd owns his flock. The elders/bishops/etc are to lead the flock by example (not lording, as you noted).

Quote:
Is 40:11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.
Did you look at verse 10? Who is "He?"

Quote:
Psalm 1-2 The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
Again, this verse is about the Lord. In my mind you have only strengthened the case against calling pastors "shepherds" with these verses -- they are about God and his flock!

I believe very strongly in the preeminence of Christ. The King James Bible calls Christ the "Cheif Shepherd" and never once applies the title of "shepherd" to a church office. Usurping that title may seem like a small issue to some, but to me, it is robbing Christ of something that is rightfully his and his alone.
  #29  
Old 07-21-2009, 11:02 PM
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Greetings Bro. Brandon,

You asked:

Quote:
Did you look at verse 10? Who is "He?"
"He" is the Chief Shepherd. I already stated in a previous post that I believed Christ is The Chief Shepherd and pastors, bishops are if you will "the undershepherds" {gasp} I know that word isn't in the Book but explains my thought.

Quote:
Usurping that title may seem like a small issue to some, but to me, it is robbing Christ of something that is rightfully his and his alone.
OK, Brother I will drop the discussion as I've said all I could. I did not intend to offend.
  #30  
Old 07-22-2009, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda S. View Post

No, but a shepherd is called a pastor.

Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.
Amanda, you are right; this is not a stretch, nor is it "reading into the passage!"

What if any of us read the following sentence:
"The women are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their children shall be scattered." Not one of us would have any doubt that the WOMEN in that sentence are MOTHERS, even though the word "MOTHERS" is not used in the passage! Women that have children are "mothers;" pastors that have flocks are "shepherds."

Brandon, I would NOT presume to rob the Lord Jesus Christ of any title...the type of a pastor as a shepherd is definitely a scriptural concept, evidenced by my example above and by the pastor's job description/responsibilities stated earlier by Amanda. The "chief Shepherd" passage (I Peter 5:1-4) leaves the impression that "the elders" are most certainly considered shepherds BECAUSE the Lord is referred to as the "chief Shepherd." The fact that there is an Indian "chief" assumes that there are Indians who are not the "chief" one; the fact that there is a "chief Shepherd" assumes that there are shepherds who are not the "chief" one!

Pam
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