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  #31  
Old 07-16-2009, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
Get David Walkers book Dispensationalism, it will reconcile both your views, in the fact as I have said the Book of Hebrews is Transitional from church age to tribulation. lots of church age applications as Tim has pointed out, and doctrines for Israel in the Tribulation as Tony has pointed out
Thanks, Chette. I just ordered this book. It's 400 pages.
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  #32  
Old 07-16-2009, 10:59 PM
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Yes, He has, brother! We live in a 1200 sq ft house (not paid off) and drive economy cars (almost paid off). Our riches are only in Christ Jesus. We would just like to avoid living in a tent if things go sour. It will be our joy to meet you. Glad your computer thing is going to be resolved, looking forward to seeing you online more.
We'll get it together soon sister. I am looking forward to it also

Grace and peace

Tony
  #33  
Old 07-17-2009, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Brother Tim View Post
Well, Tony, which am I? I am a Baptist, but:

I am not #1, for I believe and teach without apology that salvation is by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

I am not #2, for I believe and teach without apology that we are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. (I Peter 1:3-5)

I am not #3, for I have not rejected all of the components of dispensational doctrine, and I do not war (as an enemy) against those who uphold such doctrines.

Yet, I receive the words of Hebrews for myself, as a child of God, though not an Israelite by physical birth, and I do not consider it a book reserved for some future event in time.
Tim, we have flawed logic on both the Pro and Cons of Hebrews as being anything. Many fundamentalists correctly discern Paul's authprship of it but sew themselves to it from the logic of, Well, Paul wrote it and he wrote the doctrine we practice today, thus we must have SOME doctrinal application for the church today. On the other end, most my crew cannot accept Paul's authorship because by their own rigid standards " Paul could not have written anything except to the churchoftheonebody!"

Neither side is willing to accept they are wrong on their respective counts. The truth?

The truth is that Paul wrote Hebrews. The truth is that peter and the 11 could not write letters to the "uncircumcision" Body administered by Paul, but Paul could write letters to the "circumcision", he wrote them to them according to Peter. Paul founded the Jewish Corinthian church that had the "signs", practiced the "Lord's supper", and whose converts were baptized in water, all "ordinances" that ceased at the end of Acts 28. Reda my message again, rad it as a Bible Believing Christian and not as a Baptist. The Apostle Paul choreographed the transition of three Biblical dispensations: From the kingdom of heaven/restoration of Israel into the present "church age" and then laid the foundation for all doctrine for Israel in the Tribulation by writing Hebrews. Take Hebrews out of the "general" epistles. Nothing in Peter, James, John, or Jude's letters fit. The capstone of all Paul's teachings is found in Philemon. Turn the page. The foundation of Genesis-Acts 28 is in Hebrews. Dr. Ruckman says you can't understand Revelation without understanding the OT and vice versa. I don't know. If I have spent an hour studying Romans-Philemon, I've spent 10 seconds studying Revelation. How to be reconciled to God today is not found in there. It's not found in Hebrews either. It's found in Romans-Philemon. The simple truth, which is why it's so easy to miss is it's simplicity, is that you will not understand the OT without understanding Hebrews, you will not understand Hebrews without understanding the OT.


The theme of the OT is Israel's fall from grace by murdering their Messiah.
The theme of Hebrews is the rise of Israel by their accepting their Messiah.

The center of the OT is Jesus Christ.
The center of Hebrews is Jesus Christ.


Brother, I know, I see it every day where Christians have run out to the antique store and bought a Cherrypicker:

Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

We pick this one out to enforce running out to the Baptist church every time the doors are open to the exclusion of all else. What "day" is that approaching, the Gaithers coming to "minister special music" or the Second Coming Of Christ?

Brother Tim, we cherry pick Hebrews 10:25 to censure those who don;t run out to the church every time the doors open, but refuse to accept this:

Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

The refusal is accepting the water baptism of Matt. 3, Mark 16, Matt. 28, Acts 2, Acts 10, etc, is the same water baptism of Leviticus 8.

Jesus wept.

I am sorry you take offense of my use of the word "Baptist" where none was given or meant. I say this then in all sincerity and charity brother, live with it. The whole time I've been in this forum I've typed for the edification of people I accept as Christian family till I lost the use of a hand for a week and then endured being called a false teacher and a heretic by Harry Ironside and his parrots, David Walker, Dr, Ruckman, and some people in this forum. By Brandon's grace I will have some peace in that respect for the next 29 days(Check the Chit Chat part of the forum), we all will have a little less vitriol generally.

Brother, ye see what a large response I have written, and the conclusion is this: There is not word of Hebrews that is doctrinally applicable to the Mystery Body Of Christ of Eph. 3 that you and I belong to. Hebrews is written to Hebrews and does not become doctrinally operative until the Church founded and administered by Paul is taken out of the world.

Grace and peace Tim.

Marcion Antonius Hereticus
  #34  
Old 07-17-2009, 03:23 PM
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[underlining mine]
Quote:
We pick this one out to enforce running out to the Baptist church every time the doors are open to the exclusion of all else. What "day" is that approaching, the Gaithers coming to "minister special music" or the Second Coming Of Christ?
...
I am sorry you take offense of my use of the word "Baptist" where none was given or meant. I say this then in all sincerity and charity brother, live with it.
Tony, man up to the truth, you have a deep-seated problem with Baptists. You lump us all into one group while you yourself bristle when others try to stick you into a box. I as one Baptist can take all the mud you want to throw, just do try to hug me while the mud is still wet.

Quote:
Hebrews is written to Hebrews and does not become doctrinally operative until the Church founded and administered by Paul is taken out of the world.
"I say this then in all sincerity and charity brother" Tony,... this is hogwash.

P.S. Jesus founded the church, not Paul. (see my underlining)
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
  #35  
Old 07-20-2009, 08:58 AM
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Chette,

Quote:
Title and verse numbers and chapter division by most feel they are just of men. But if God has given us the KJV complete with these titles and divisions and numbering I believe they in that case are inspired and preserved as such for a reason.
AMEN!

Quote:
David Walker does a good job of showing the transitional nature of Hebrews in his book "Dispensatinalism"
AMEN again. A fantastic book. Bro. David was in my husband's graduating class at PBI and he truly knows the Book!
  #36  
Old 07-20-2009, 09:21 AM
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Greenbear,

For what it's worth, if you're interested.

This is what Dr. Ruckman says:

Quote:
The author of the last chapter is undoubtedly Paul while the other 12 chapters contain material of such a nature that to this day no one can nail down the author for certain. If I were pressed for an answer I would say that the first 12 chapters were written while Paul was in Arabia, and were aimed at "his kinsmen according to the flesh" (Rom 9:3), about whom he sorrowed day and night (Acts 20:22-24). I presume Paul wrote the last chapter sometime after Acts 20. The reader will burn out his eyes studying the arguments for and angainst the authorship of Priscilla and Aquilla, Barnabas, Apollos, Luke, and others, and when he is through he will be exactly where he was when he started: nowhere.

It's a free country. Take your pick. Accepting or rejecting any of the above theories will not open ONE word in ONE verse for you anywhere in the entire 13 chapters.
Blessings!
  #37  
Old 07-20-2009, 09:42 AM
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David Walker does a good job of showing the transitional nature of Hebrews in his book "Dispensatinalism"
Hmmm!

Quote:
It's a free country. Take your pick. Accepting or rejecting any of the above theories will not open ONE word in ONE verse for you anywhere in the entire 13 chapters.
Excellent quote!
  #38  
Old 07-20-2009, 08:38 PM
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Pastor Walker sent me a copy of dispensationalism. I was blessed to say the least.
  #39  
Old 07-20-2009, 09:23 PM
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I expect to receive my copy any day now.
  #40  
Old 07-21-2009, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Amanda S. View Post
Greenbear,

For what it's worth, if you're interested.

This is what Dr. Ruckman says:



Blessings!
Thanks, Amanda. I've considered looking into Ruckman, he sounds like a fascinating teacher, although I gather there would be a whole lot I would disagree with him about. Interesting perspective, that quote.

Blessings,

Jennifer
 

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