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  #11  
Old 05-26-2009, 04:42 PM
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Amen, BibleReader!

What makes American Christians think that we are exempt from the same severe persecution that has in the past existed in many places and today exists in much of the world! Does anyone think that we American Christians have done such a great job that God is going to give us a pass?!? It is only the grace of God and perhaps His reward for the churches in the US being a light to the world for Christianity for so long in our history that we have not already begun to feel the heat of the enemy's breath. Our time to suffer is coming rapidly, and the Church of God in the US is entirely unprepared for it!
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  #12  
Old 05-27-2009, 12:04 AM
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I'm in agreement with biblereader and Brother Tim.

Has anyone read any of the articles posted by the Voice of the Martyrs (VOM) about persecuted Christians - these are things that are happening in the world NOW. True, VOM doesn't use the KJV Bible - but they do report on the plentiful suffering of steadfast Christian believers in: China, India, Africa, Pakistan, Iran, Mexico, Cuba, Columbia, Belarus, North Korea, Indonesia, Malyasia, Vietnam, Bangladesh, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Iraq... need I go on?

Most recently, they reported on 2750 faithful Christians in Nigeria being brutally murdered by Muslims. There are Christians in these countries where the majority are NOT Christian - and the countries are run by Shariah Law (Islamic Law), like in Nigeria, suffer tremendous persecution. They suffer beatings, torture, imprisonment, damage to their homes (often they are torched and burnt to the ground) along with their Bibles and sometimes with the occupants!

I think we tend to think of this as "over there" and we are "over here" - and safe. Well, we may be at this time - but things tend to change very quickly. And laws are now being passed in the USA making it almost a CRIME to be a Christian - or at least making punishment of some Christian activities a crime. How can police in San Diego, CA - yes, right in the USA - knock on doors and demand answers to private questions about what they are doing in their own home? And if they answer affirmatively to having Bible studies, saying Amen, reading Scripture from a Bible - then that is "breaking a law"!

Think about underground churches all over the world. Do you know how very PRECIOUS a Bible is to a Chinese Christian? They are only allowed to attend "state-run" (and controlled) churches. These are not true Christian churches and they are not allowed to choose the Bible they want to use. It has to be sanctioned and printed by the state! Often they have to sneak out a Bible, perhaps buried in the floor and read under the covers with a flashlight at night. If they're caught reading a Bible, the punishment could be severe. Imagine how inifinitely PRECIOUS a Bible is to such a person!

A Christian lawyer is currently being held in China for representing Christians. He has been tortured with electrical shocks all over his body (including his private area) until he was writhing on the floor in pain! His family - his wife and young children - left alone without a man to defend them, have been abused and threatened. They finally had to escape to asylum in the USA. But now they fear that he is being punished for them escaping as well. They have have not heard from him. This is not a first capture for him. He has been brutally beaten and tortured in the past. He will NOT renouce his faith and continues to stand for other Christians.

WOW! How many of us would do that in the face of torture? Think about it! Your Lord and Saviour was brutally scourged, spat upon, nailed to a cross, and left to die an excruciatingly painful death. How much do we let that sink in and realize what he did for OUR sins? How much would we be willing to suffer for HIM?

You can check out VOM - www.persecution.com and click on the tab "Restricted Nations" and see how many countries are not as fortunate as we are here. Read the stories of Christians who have stood firm in their faith!

Jassy

Last edited by Jassy; 05-27-2009 at 12:13 AM.
  #13  
Old 05-27-2009, 12:09 PM
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Amen, biblereader, Brother Tim and Jassy.

It seems we are on the road to fascism in this country. I won't fight it outside of "the system" lest I be fighting against the Lord. It seems clear to me that the Lord is judging this nation for the magnitude of innocent blood shed on this land. Just like Britain before us, we as a nation have turned away from the light of the Gospel of Christ toward humanism and paganism and occultism.

I absolutely agree with Jassy's assessment. Yet, I don't want to suffer, I hope the Lord comes back today to take us out of this world! We may end up seeing how great things we too must suffer for His name's sake. I never in my wildest imagination thought things would move downhill as quickly as they are in the US and Europe.

Jassy, thanks for the VOM link. I agree with you so closely on just about everything you've written, so far! Praise God!
  #14  
Old 05-27-2009, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by greenbear View Post
Amen, biblereader, Brother Tim and Jassy

It seems we are on the road to fascism in this country. I won't fight it outside of "the system" lest I be fighting against the Lord. It seems clear to me that the Lord is judging this nation for the magnitude of innocent blood shed on this land. Just like Britain before us, we as a nation have turned away from the light of the Gospel of Christ toward humanism and paganism and occultism.

I absolutely agree with Jassy's assessment. Yet, I don't want to suffer, I hope the Lord comes back today to take us out of this world! We may end up seeing how great things we too must suffer for His name's sake. I never in my wildest imagination thought things would move downhill as quickly as they are in the US and Europe.

Jassy, thanks for the VOM link. I agree with you so closely on just about everything you've written, so far! Praise God!
greenbear,

It is a pleasure to have you for a sister in our Lord! I have been uplifted, encouraged, enlightened, and edified by many of your posts.

I don't want to suffer either, but we can't place ourselves in a little cocoon and say that we are MORE BLESSED and won't have to suffer. We are currently experiencing protection... but it looks like that is quickly changing and I have prepared myself to face possible persecution for my faith. We need to pray to remain strong in the Lord, no matter what happens. I've seen so many Christians that brush-off or easily dismiss persecution of Christians in other parts of the world, assuming that it doesn't apply to them and that they are simply immune, by some unwritten "spiritual protection."

We are promised BLESSINGS if we obey. But do Christians really understand that those blessings are not MATERIAL ones? They are SPIRITUAL. Paul even said to count it all JOY when you suffer things for the Lord's name sake! That's considered a BLESSING!!!!!

Why does the Bible tell us that we need to put on armor, if there's not going to be a battle and persecution? We haven't YET had to suffer persecution.

Why didn't the Lord take out the apostles in a rapture before they had to suffer?

Why doesn't the Lord take out the people worldwide who are suffering cruel brutality daily for their faithful BELIEF in the Lord?

It isn't promised, until it gets REALLY BAD and there are almost no true Christians left! (A remnant) The others will deny our Lord when it comes to a crucial test (remember Peter who denied Jesus 3 times!).

We truly need to be PREPARED!!

Jassy
  #15  
Old 05-27-2009, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Tim View Post
Amen, BibleReader!

What makes American Christians think that we are exempt from the same severe persecution that has in the past existed in many places and today exists in much of the world! Does anyone think that we American Christians have done such a great job that God is going to give us a pass?!? It is only the grace of God and perhaps His reward for the churches in the US being a light to the world for Christianity for so long in our history that we have not already begun to feel the heat of the enemy's breath. Our time to suffer is coming rapidly, and the Church of God in the US is entirely unprepared for it!
That single sentence, the Church of God in the US is entirely unprepared for(suffering), is another burden I feel. I am almost in pain trying to shake people awake, to get them to see that if the master suffered, the servants must also suffer...
18: If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19: If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
20: Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
21: But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

WHERE is the weeping and wailing? Where is the separation from the world, in the Christian? Why are we so lukewarm? Does the world love you? Do you have many people telling you what a good fellow you are? Then examine yourself, and see if you really are a witness for Jesus Christ! A wise preacher I used to listen to, (he is dead, now), said, if you aren't being disliked or rejected by SOME of the people you come in contact with, you aren't behaving like a true Christian. If everyone likes you, then you are not living for JESUS.
  #16  
Old 05-27-2009, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by greenbear View Post
It seems we are on the road to fascism in this country. I won't fight it outside of "the system" lest I be fighting against the Lord. Yet, I don't want to suffer, I hope the Lord comes back today to take us out of this world! We may end up seeing how great things we too must suffer for His name's sake. I never in my wildest imagination thought things would move downhill as quickly as they are in the US and Europe.
Dear Greenbear! You are wise not to fight against the government system, since JESUS put Obama in office. We are not to go against what God has ordained, not even if we don't like the government. We should work within the realm Jesus has given us, and work with extreme urgency and persistence.
Get your mind ready for the persecutions. Ask Jesus to strengthen you, to make you trust so much in Him, that you aren't afraid anymore.
He will prepare you, but you must seek him with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. You must desire Jesus above anything you posess in this world, and you have to love Jesus Christ more than you love anyone else, including yourself.
Please prepare yourself. The battle is for the mind, and the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Resist the devil, and he will FLEE from you!
  #17  
Old 05-27-2009, 02:31 PM
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1: Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2: Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Obama could NOT have become president of the US, unless God allowed it.
God is in control over all, everything is subject to Jesus Christ.
We are to be wise as serpents but harmless as doves, as we live the rest of our lives in whatever government we are in. Speak the truth, always, but speak it with boldness, and charity.
I was overjoyed for a moment, when I read what you said, Greenbear, about "lest I be fighting against the Lord". Our job is to rescue the perishing.
No matter who is our government ruler:
22: And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
  #18  
Old 05-27-2009, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jassy View Post
greenbear,

It is a pleasure to have you for a sister in our Lord! I have been uplifted, encouraged, enlightened, and edified by many of your posts.

I don't want to suffer either, but we can't place ourselves in a little cocoon and say that we are MORE BLESSED and won't have to suffer. We are currently experiencing protection... but it looks like that is quickly changing and I have prepared myself to face possible persecution for my faith. We need to pray to remain strong in the Lord, no matter what happens. I've seen so many Christians that brush-off or easily dismiss persecution of Christians in other parts of the world, assuming that it doesn't apply to them and that they are simply immune, by some unwritten "spiritual protection."

We are promised BLESSINGS if we obey. But do Christians really understand that those blessings are not MATERIAL ones? They are SPIRITUAL. Paul even said to count it all JOY when you suffer things for the Lord's name sake! That's considered a BLESSING!!!!!

Why does the Bible tell us that we need to put on armor, if there's not going to be a battle and persecution? We haven't YET had to suffer persecution.

Why didn't the Lord take out the apostles in a rapture before they had to suffer?

Why doesn't the Lord take out the people worldwide who are suffering cruel brutality daily for their faithful BELIEF in the Lord?

It isn't promised, until it gets REALLY BAD and there are almost no true Christians left! (A remnant) The others will deny our Lord when it comes to a crucial test (remember Peter who denied Jesus 3 times!).

We truly need to be PREPARED!!

Jassy
It is also a pleasure to have you as a sister in the Lord. He uses you to encourage a lot but I believe you also can exhort with great conviction.
It's kind of gratifying to read someone who's view of the world seems so close to my own. I almost think you might even believe, or at least not discard out of hand, some of the "wierder stuff" I believe . Satan certainly is the god of this present world.

I think you are absolutely right about needing to prepare. And that the blessings He promises are primarily spiritual, not physical. When we're living by the Spirit we can appreciate how far greater and more desirable are His spiritual blessings than physical ones.

Jassy, you said: "Why does the Bible tell us that we need to put on armor, if there's not going to be a battle and persecution? We haven't YET had to suffer persecution."
Just like God's promised blessings, the armor of God is also spiritual. It protects us from spiritual attack, not physical. It protects us against every spiritual attack of the enemy if we use it properly and consistently. We don't use the armor against people and governments who persecute us for our faith. I believe the preparation we need to engage in to prepare for the coming persecution is hiding His word in our hearts so that we have his Word even when it's taken away from us..

2 Cor
10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Ephesians
6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

You are so right; The Lord will deliver us from the wrath to come.
He will come for us before the Day of the Lord, the day of His wrath. We will likely suffer persecution but we will not suffer wrath, neither God's nor Satan's.

Rev 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Jassy, you said:"It isn't promised, until it gets REALLY BAD and there are almost no true Christians left! (A remnant) The others will deny our Lord when it comes to a crucial test (remember Peter who denied Jesus 3 times!)."
It is possible, I believe, for a christian to deny the Lord by many different motivations. Fear, torture, shame, the love of money, etc. In this age of Grace we do not have to endure until the end to be saved. I came out of the legalism of the SDA church (didn't grow up in it, just a couple of years as a brand new christian or "pre-christian") and it took me a decade to get every last trace of it's leaven- legalistic, Israel/church identity confusion out of my thinking. every time I thought I had killed it for good, it would pop it's ugly head up right in the middle of another discussion or thought. All there is for the church is grace. No requirement to be strong under persecution or torture, no imperative not to deny Him, no nothing- nothing but salvation by faith alone. We are free from ALL!!!!!!!

Romans
8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nothing can take us out of the Body of Christ. Not even ourselves. Nothing present or to come. Nothing.

Back to "wrath". Israel will suffer wrath, though. I don't know why so many Christians want to take on Israel's blessings and their curses.

12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The remnant is Israel. Any time a remnant is spoken of, I believe it is always referring to Israel, not the church. I do think, however, that when Jesus raptures His church before the tribulation, those who are alive at His coming, those translated, will probably be less in number than we think-just IMHO.

My belief is that persecution and suffering will cause true "revival" in the church in America. The Lord has blessed me so much the last 2 weeks as I try to cease walking in my own power and lean upon Him, instead. His children are strengthened when all other avenues of help are closed and we are forced to rely solely on Him. In much the same way, Israel will be blessed with the triumphant return of their Messiah only when no man on earth is able to help them.

12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

In His Love,
Jennifer

Last edited by greenbear; 05-27-2009 at 04:30 PM.
  #19  
Old 05-27-2009, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by biblereader View Post
Dear Greenbear! You are wise not to fight against the government system, since JESUS put Obama in office. We are not to go against what God has ordained, not even if we don't like the government. We should work within the realm Jesus has given us, and work with extreme urgency and persistence.
Get your mind ready for the persecutions. Ask Jesus to strengthen you, to make you trust so much in Him, that you aren't afraid anymore.
He will prepare you, but you must seek him with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. You must desire Jesus above anything you posess in this world, and you have to love Jesus Christ more than you love anyone else, including yourself.
Please prepare yourself. The battle is for the mind, and the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Resist the devil, and he will FLEE from you!
Amen, biblereader!

2 Tim 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Thanks for the encouragement. I love you in the Lord, sister.
  #20  
Old 05-27-2009, 06:02 PM
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Who said I did not believe Christians in the U.S. would not suffer persecution?

I said that pretty soon they would be breaking our doors down at midnight dragging us away.

What do you think I was talking about there
 

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