Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
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  #1  
Old 05-24-2009, 02:47 PM
boaz212 boaz212 is offline
 
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Default Thou shalt not kill? or murder?

Someone made a statement while discussing the capital punishment issue said it was a bad translation in Exd 20:13 Thou shalt not kill. The word kill should have been "murder".
I believe the KJV is correct. But can anyone shed more light on the word selection "kill" instead of "murder" for me?
Thanks in advance.
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  #2  
Old 05-24-2009, 03:33 PM
MPeak MPeak is offline
 
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Default Killing and one's neighbor

In Genesis 9:6, God instructs Noah, "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

The question is why did God insitute the commandment not to kill when He told Noah that execution for murderer was what He wanted?

The Ten Commandments were given, partly, to teach mankind how to live with one another in righteousness and to please God. For example, we honor our parents, do not steal from one another, do not lie about one another or have sex with someone who is not our spouse. In the same vein of loving one's neighbor, we do not take their life for personal gain, such as revenge or theft or to have their wife, which is what King David did (2 Samuel 11).

Jesus took this commandment and explained it further by saying, "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment ..." (Matthew 5:21-22).

The intent of the commandment was not to prohibit the punishment of murderers or war, but to prevent the vicious cycle of retribution.

An interesting cultural example is the movie Godfather, not the most "Christian" film. At one point, Michael Corleone is in Italy, hiding in a small village, and asks where all the men are. He is told that they are all dead because of vendetta killings. That is the kind of madness that the commandment is meant to hinder.
  #3  
Old 05-24-2009, 06:08 PM
Bro. Parrish
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boaz212 View Post
Someone made a statement while discussing the capital punishment issue said it was a bad translation in Exd 20:13 Thou shalt not kill. The word kill should have been "murder".
I believe the KJV is correct. But can anyone shed more light on the word selection "kill" instead of "murder" for me?
Thanks in advance.
Well Boaz, I don't know why God chose that word, but I can tell you the word "KILL" was good enough for the Apostle Paul, who echoed it in Rom. 13:9, and in that same chapter Paul reminded us that Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the FULFILLING OF THE LAW. To put it plainly, I think God expects people who read His book to have a little common sense.

For example, if we were to take the words THOU SHALT NOT KILL as an absolute, then how would we eat the meat of animals? Don't laugh, there are many religious people on the earth today who will NOT KILL A COW because of their religion. If we were to take the words THOU SHALT NOT KILL as an absolute, then how would we have defended our land and loved ones from the Japanese? There are conscientious objectors who would not fight for their country because of that verse, yet we serve the SAME GOD who instructs Israel to "smite and utterly destroy" the inhabitants of other regions (e.g. Deut 7:1-4, Joshua 6:16-21). If we study the COMPLETE Bible, the answers make themselves clear and obvious, without the need to change the Word of God. As a result, I never felt the urge to publish a new version and change the word "kill" to anything else.

In light of the ENTIRE revelation of God's complete and inerrant Word (including the Old Testament exactly as it is written), it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to think that the God of the Bible is always opposed to KILLING, therefore I am left with the conclusion that God is obviously talking about the murder of innocent humans. Since God Himself established capital punishment as a frightening deterrent against human violence long BEFORE THE LAW OF MOSES, way back in Gen. 9:6, I am also left with the conclusion that God expects us to retain the death penalty for certain people even to this day. That's my take on it.

Last edited by Bro. Parrish; 05-24-2009 at 06:18 PM.
  #4  
Old 05-24-2009, 10:22 PM
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Jassy Jassy is offline
 
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Boaz, as Bro Parrish, in part, said:

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Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish View Post
For example, if we were to take the words THOU SHALT NOT KILL as an absolute, then how would we eat the meat of animals?...
Our world would be rather overrun by insects, those pesky mosquitoes, flies... not to mention spiders and those horrid cockroaches!! I don't know about you, but I'd rather be equipped with a flyswatter, than to let flies or ants run amok indoors in the summer!

So, I agree with Bro Parrish.
  #5  
Old 05-24-2009, 10:56 PM
Bro. Parrish
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Here's another sad thing along those lines... over 50,000 people in India are bitten by snakes every year, and die. That's 50,000 DEAD every year, FROM SNAKE BITES.

These statistics are shocking, considering India is neither home to the largest number of snakes in the world, nor is there a shortage of antivenin in the country. Australia, home to the MOST venomous snakes in the world, on the other hand, recorded just one death in 2005. Why does this happen?

For one thing, many people in India will not KILL a rat, they WORSHIP RATS.

Many of them will not KILL a snake, even the most deadly species... they WORSHIP SNAKES.

"Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever..." Romans 1:25
  #6  
Old 05-25-2009, 06:44 AM
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tonybones2112 tonybones2112 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boaz212 View Post
Someone made a statement while discussing the capital punishment issue said it was a bad translation in Exd 20:13 Thou shalt not kill. The word kill should have been "murder".
I believe the KJV is correct. But can anyone shed more light on the word selection "kill" instead of "murder" for me?
Thanks in advance.
Tim, the translation in both Hebrew and Greek("kill" OT, "murder" NT)is correct. Jesus defines for us the exact meaning of the word. God sent the children of Israel into Palestine to wipe out the Canaanites down to the dogs and chickens, to scorch the earth to cleanse the land of the taint of their evil. This was a military action.

The issue of capital punishment is settled by God in Romans:

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

We have the right to legally resist the banning of Bible study in San Diego county because the law says we may resist and oppose it, not with pipe bombs but legally constituted methods as voting, judicial action, and boycotting.

Moses would be tried today for voluntary manslaughter in his killing of the Egyptian taskmaster who beat the Israelite but it was murder nonetheless. King David put the husband of the woman he wanted in the front line of the attack, that was murder. Soldiers have to attack and defend themselves, that is not murder. Neither is a cop who must kill to defend himself or citizens in the line of duty. Romans 13 makes it clear God established civil government. Paul states there are those who are of a "reprobate mind" and do foul and obscene things in Romans 1 and that they are "...worthy of death". We once had capital punishment for child molesters, and we do for child killers. It was Plato or one of the Greek philosophers said something almost Biblical: Where homosexuality and perversion is tolerated, it will flourish.

Roman's 13 settles the capital punishment issue, case closed.

Mt 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

In all your studies of the OT never forget also: The "Ten" Commandments are no more important than any of the other 630+ Laws. If you break one you broke all of them according to James. If you shaved today you broke the Law. If you cook a meal on the Jewish Sabbath, you broke the Law. As Gentiles we are not nor ever were under the Law. The Law was to lead the Jews to Christ, He is the "end" of the Law for those that believe. But we are under the civil law, it was established and backed by God.

Grace and peace Tim

Tony
  #7  
Old 05-26-2009, 11:58 AM
boaz212 boaz212 is offline
 
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Thanks MPeak, Bro. Parrish, Jassy, and Tony for your helpful responses. The issue of capital punishment is clear from the scriptural teaching. Thanks for the references.
What I don't like to hear is people correcting God's words in the KJB in the "kill" and "murder" example to make their point stronger. I believe the translators knew the differences between the two words.
Thank you all again. God bless.
Tim
  #8  
Old 05-26-2009, 12:00 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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What did the Lord Jesus himself say?

Matt 15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
  #9  
Old 05-26-2009, 02:54 PM
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Forrest Forrest is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Jassy View Post
Our world would be rather overrun by insects, those pesky mosquitoes, flies... not to mention spiders and those horrid cockroaches!! I don't know about you, but I'd rather be equipped with a flyswatter, than to let flies or ants run amok indoors in the summer!
If you come visit in Texas, you better bring a baseball bat, a flyswatter won't do the job!
  #10  
Old 05-26-2009, 10:56 PM
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Jassy Jassy is offline
 
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If you come visit in Texas, you better bring a baseball bat, a flyswatter won't do the job!
Brother Forrest, I think I'll stay in Wisconsin - where the bugs seem to have a shorter lifespan and generally don't get too large.... LOL

I can just imagine the ump yelling, "Striiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiike one..." Does that mean mean I struck the bug, or missed it? LOL
 

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