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  #31  
Old 06-06-2008, 03:01 AM
Easy E Easy E is offline
 
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don't think I'm seeking strife and debate with you my brother
No, this is good for us, lets keep it up.

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I think I've heard you say say 'dispensation...' more times that I want to here.
Why don't you ask Paul to leave it out of I Corinthians 9:17, Eph 1:10, 3:2, and Col 1:25. It is ok to talk about dispensations. We are commanded to rightly divide(II Tim 2:15). That is all Chette777 is doing. Nothing wrong with going by the Bible.

Stephanos, you then go on to illustrate Example #1 of why people are supposed to rightly divide the word of truth. I want to know, Who is James addressed to? You find it in James 1:1...

Jam_1:1, James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

James is not giving us church age doctrine in these passages. Spiritually there is a lot of good stuff in the book and I love reading it. But doctrinally it is not TO us.

How do I know?

Because when you talk about James 2:20, 24, my mind goes right to Romans 4:5

Rom_4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Contradiction? Of course not. Paul is writing to the CHRISTIANS at Rome. James is writing to the JEWS. We, stephanos, are not Jews. We have no works that impact our salvation in any way. Our works impact our rewards II Cor 5:10...

2Co_5:10, For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

We, that is Christians, get saved and then our works are judged and then we receive rewards for our works (good or bad). That does not mean that a Christian without works goes to Hell.

Praise God for that. That is why what Jesus did on the cross was so great. We ought to thank Him for His 'great salvation'. Calling it "great" is the understatement of history. It makes me rethink all the times that I have called something else 'great'.

This is what is practiced by the "dispensationalists" if you confuse these things (James and Romans) you will end up in trouble. Trust me, to dismiss 'dispensationalism' and not just discuss its merits would be a grave mistake for all Christians.
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  #32  
Old 06-06-2008, 06:06 AM
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Biblestudent Biblestudent is offline
 
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I believe that when talking about the Rapture of the Church (or the catching up of the Body of Christ), we need to consider Paul.

2 Timothy 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

The resurrection and rapture of Church Age saints is a mystery revealed through the Apostle Paul.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul says, "I (not "we") show you a mystery." Only Paul talks about the church being CAUGHT UP together in the CLOUDS meet the Lord in the air. The OT prophets and the Twelve Apostles all talks about the Lord's coming down ON EARTH. To them were not revealed the "mystery" concerning the Rapture, but to Paul it was.
  #33  
Old 06-06-2008, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Easy E View Post
No, this is good for us, lets keep it up.



Why don't you ask Paul to leave it out of I Corinthians 9:17, Eph 1:10, 3:2, and Col 1:25. It is ok to talk about dispensations. We are commanded to rightly divide(II Tim 2:15). That is all Chette777 is doing. Nothing wrong with going by the Bible.

Stephanos, you then go on to illustrate Example #1 of why people are supposed to rightly divide the word of truth. I want to know, Who is James addressed to? You find it in James 1:1...

Jam_1:1, James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

James is not giving us church age doctrine in these passages. Spiritually there is a lot of good stuff in the book and I love reading it. But doctrinally it is not TO us.

How do I know?

Because when you talk about James 2:20, 24, my mind goes right to Romans 4:5

Rom_4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Contradiction? Of course not. Paul is writing to the CHRISTIANS at Rome. James is writing to the JEWS. We, stephanos, are not Jews. We have no works that impact our salvation in any way. Our works impact our rewards II Cor 5:10...

2Co_5:10, For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

We, that is Christians, get saved and then our works are judged and then we receive rewards for our works (good or bad). That does not mean that a Christian without works goes to Hell.

Praise God for that. That is why what Jesus did on the cross was so great. We ought to thank Him for His 'great salvation'. Calling it "great" is the understatement of history. It makes me rethink all the times that I have called something else 'great'.

This is what is practiced by the "dispensationalists" if you confuse these things (James and Romans) you will end up in trouble. Trust me, to dismiss 'dispensationalism' and not just discuss its merits would be a grave mistake for all Christians.
Greetings Easy E,

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. I want you to know that I have heard this same argument used before, but I don't buy it. James was a very important figure with the church at Jerusalem. There is no doubt that his ministry was with the "jews" there and abroad. But I do not believe the Messianic Israelites have a different covenant than us gentile Christians. I believe that we (the wild olive tree) are a grafted branch into the vine (Romans 11) and partakers of the same salvation they are offered in Christ Jesus. It is important for you to understand that I am not trying to make this theory out to be some big heresy, but rather to be a voice for those that do not agree with this doctrine. I am also not saying there is nothing good in what you guys teach, but am saying that as a whole I don't agree with your aproach. To be honest I don't agree with any such preconcieved idea about how one should interpret Scripture. I've seen how some 'groups' are very controlling about this sort of thing, and I believe this is dangerous.

I guess my point to you dispensationalists is that you live the rhetoric at the door and just stick with Scriptures. I can go with that, but not with all the 'dispensations' and such an such 'age'.

Much Love in Christ,
Stephen
  #34  
Old 06-07-2008, 12:57 PM
Easy E Easy E is offline
 
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But I do not believe the Messianic Israelites have a different covenant than us gentile Christians.
I don't either. I think that they WILL have a different one, after the Rapture of the Church. This is Daniel's 70th week, knowing that Daniel's prophecies deal with God and the Jews. (Dan. 9:24 - "thy people" Dan was a Jew) Right now, in the church, there is neither Jew nor Greek (Rom 10:12)

Quote:
I believe that we (the wild olive tree) are a grafted branch into the vine (Romans 11) and partakers of the same salvation they are offered in Christ Jesus.
I agree we are. If someone is teaching a different plan of salvation for Jews today, they are wrong. They must go through Jesus Christ and they must be Born Again.

Quote:
It is important for you to understand that I am not trying to make this theory out to be some big heresy, but rather to be a voice for those that do not agree with this doctrine. I am also not saying there is nothing good in what you guys teach, but am saying that as a whole I don't agree with your aproach.
I understand what you are saying. Dispensationalism is a hard doctrine. But that is not a reason to just get rid of it.

Quote:
To be honest I don't agree with any such preconcieved idea about how one should interpret Scripture.
What's wrong with taking the Bible as it says to. If a guy in the Bible is speaking to the Church, than he is talking to the Church. If he is talking to Jews than he is talking to Jews. I don't see that as a preconcieved idea or interpretation. I actually think that to make the passages addressed to the Jews something for the church is a preconcieved idea or interpretation that I would stay away from.

Now, a person should look for spiritual application throughout the entire Bible (I Tim 3:16). But one has to be careful getting Church Age doctrine outside of the Pauline Epistles and Peter and John. Have you ever wondered why Catholics and JWs and Mormons even use the Bible? Because their doctrine is in there. They just don't read context. Dispensationalism just is a way of remembering to look at context.

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I've seen how some 'groups' are very controlling about this sort of thing, and I believe this is dangerous.
Maybe they are. I don't know, I've only been around this game for about a year now. Praise God He is very longsuffering. But like I've said before (can't remember where), the robber barons were bad, but, please, don't become a communists because of a couple of bad capitalists. (just an example, I am not calling anyone a commie)

Quote:
I guess my point to you dispensationalists is that you live the rhetoric at the door and just stick with Scriptures. I can go with that, but not with all the 'dispensations' and such an such 'age'.
Fine. I can very much respect that.

But you never really answered my question. How do you keep verses like those in James 2 and Romans 4 together? A plain reading shows that they are not talking about the same thing. Are we Christians saved by faith and then have to have works or else we were never saved? Or can a person get saved, do nothing with his new life, and still get to heaven (I would never recommend this, just an example)?

What about I Cor 3:10-15 and Heb 3:14? These questions are every where and if you, Stephanos, can give me a good reason to look at these verses in another way, I'm all ears!
  #35  
Old 06-08-2008, 03:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Easy E View Post
I don't either. I think that they WILL have a different one, after the Rapture of the Church. This is Daniel's 70th week, knowing that Daniel's prophecies deal with God and the Jews. (Dan. 9:24 - "thy people" Dan was a Jew) Right now, in the church, there is neither Jew nor Greek (Rom 10:12)



I agree we are. If someone is teaching a different plan of salvation for Jews today, they are wrong. They must go through Jesus Christ and they must be Born Again.



I understand what you are saying. Dispensationalism is a hard doctrine. But that is not a reason to just get rid of it.



What's wrong with taking the Bible as it says to. If a guy in the Bible is speaking to the Church, than he is talking to the Church. If he is talking to Jews than he is talking to Jews. I don't see that as a preconcieved idea or interpretation. I actually think that to make the passages addressed to the Jews something for the church is a preconcieved idea or interpretation that I would stay away from.

Now, a person should look for spiritual application throughout the entire Bible (I Tim 3:16). But one has to be careful getting Church Age doctrine outside of the Pauline Epistles and Peter and John. Have you ever wondered why Catholics and JWs and Mormons even use the Bible? Because their doctrine is in there. They just don't read context. Dispensationalism just is a way of remembering to look at context.



Maybe they are. I don't know, I've only been around this game for about a year now. Praise God He is very longsuffering. But like I've said before (can't remember where), the robber barons were bad, but, please, don't become a communists because of a couple of bad capitalists. (just an example, I am not calling anyone a commie)



Fine. I can very much respect that.

But you never really answered my question. How do you keep verses like those in James 2 and Romans 4 together? A plain reading shows that they are not talking about the same thing. Are we Christians saved by faith and then have to have works or else we were never saved? Or can a person get saved, do nothing with his new life, and still get to heaven (I would never recommend this, just an example)?

What about I Cor 3:10-15 and Heb 3:14? These questions are every where and if you, Stephanos, can give me a good reason to look at these verses in another way, I'm all ears!
Greetings Easy E,

I really enjoyed your response tbh. I also really appreaciate your loving and patient attitude towards my messages. This is very much so 1 John 3:14. Anywho...

I think the thing I always keep in mind when I think about the whole notion of faith without works vs faith with works (which I believe Paul spoke about also) is that like Jesus said, a bad tree cannot bear good fruit and a good tree cannot bear bad fruit. A good example of this is the fact that there are literally millions upon millions of Americans that call themselves Christians, yet are easily the most Godless people on the face of the planet. So, you tell me, are these people Christians or are they not? If these people are Christians then I can assure you, my flesh wants some of the bible they're reading, because their conversation doesn't line up with the the Way I've learned in the Bible I've put my faith in. Works/fruit is the evidence of the faith in things unseen. I personally (a Mennonite) realized that I needed to be obedient with the message that a Christian needs to be seperate from the world, not sowing to the flesh by the outward adorning with jewelry and fashionable clothing and that I, a man and not a woman, should wear a beard. This was something that instantly made me an outsider to the world (and even to those that profess Jesus Christ, thought me a fool), yet because I am of my Master, Jesus Christ, I do things that are shown to me by Him who's ways are not of this world. This is the works I believe James is speaking of. It is also clear that James is not speaking of the works of the Mosaic Law as you will gather when you come across James 1:27. Also (the Holy Ghost just brought me to rememberance) James had Paul get clean as a sign that he kept the law (but didn't) when he returned to Jerusalem in Acts 21:21-26, yet James doesn't expressely speak concerning this Mosaic Law in James (and it is clear that James is in agreement with Paul in other passages concerning those Israelite Christians still zealous about the Law and the gentile Christians). James speaks of works as evidence of faith. Faith without works is dead, and dead trees, no matter how hard they pretend, cannot bear good fruit.

Well, that's all I have at 2:45am, lol. Thanks again for the response.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

EDIT: Ok maybe I still have some in me at this late hour.

In 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 it seems to me that Paul is speaking of the work of building up the body of Christ (and initially by the Gospel foundation that Paul built), and that even if it doesn't stand in the end that the work a Christian puts into it still counts. I think a good example of this is the fact that the church in Ephesus and Corinth are totally dead today. I don't think this is a sign of bad fruit, but rather seed being cast onto poor ground (the church at corinth died by the time of Clement).

Hebrews 3:14 is simply speaking of confidence, not sure how this relates to our discussion. I can relate to this verse however. Some men have tried to convince me that my zeal for Christ (which I've had for nearly 10 years now) will wax cold as I grow older (I'm 26 now), but I do not believe this is true. I know men that never have yet to grow cold, who still hold to the beginning of their confidence until the end. I even know men that now sleep that never lost this confidence. These are the men whose faith was held unto the end. I think another thing to keep in mind is what Jesus says to each of the churches in Asia Minor, "I know thy works" (Revelation 2:2,9,13,19 3:1,8,15) so I don't think a Christian can in good faith claim that our Master doesn't require good works from us. I'm not so sure why so many people believe that works aren't required of us, but I often ask them if obedience is required of us. A lot of people that profess Jesus Christ remind me of a child saying to his father, I love you so much that I don't have to do what you say. It is my hope and prayer that this isn't my response to the commandments of Christ Jesus the King! Amen.

Welp, it's 3:15 and I'm signing off for the second time. *zzz*

Last edited by stephanos; 06-08-2008 at 04:12 AM.
  #36  
Old 06-12-2008, 10:03 AM
Jeremy Jeremy is offline
 
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It amazes me how the Secular world is warning people of coming disasters and our Preachers choose not to, by leaving out phrophecys in the Bible, Matt,Mark,Luke,Daniel,Eziekiel,Revelation etc.. Alot of Christians don't even make a connection with todays events, wars,disease,natural disasters,false religions,mild mannered churches aka Lukewarm.
I had conversations with a few people in our church, and they believe that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. Allah is not our God! and they feel that we occupy Iraq. Here is what one man said to me about Israel, How would you like it if you had a house that was passed down for generations,and someone decided to take it from you. This tells me that they believe that Israels land belongs to the Palestinians, than trys to explain to me about Ishmael and Issac,but didn't say that the convenant was with Issac, not Ishmael. When you choose not to teach prophecy than you can expect these kinds of confused beliefs. I am looking for the Blessed Hope.
Lord,come quickly!
  #37  
Old 06-17-2008, 04:47 PM
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Stephanos,

after the church is removed 1thes 4 and we meet Jesus in the air. the antichrist is revealed and Israel becomes the center of Gods work again. they will fall back under Law. their faith in Jesus Christ will be accompanied by thier works. no grace alone through faith salvation during that time period.

Stepahnos and EasyE see post in chit chat under The word of God. If it applies to you then submit to it. I expect your deposit and the keys ASAP.
 

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