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Old 05-24-2008, 09:00 AM
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1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


The Rapture is a mystery revealed through the Apostle Paul. It is one of the unique messages of the unique apostle to a unique body in a unique age.
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  #12  
Old 05-26-2008, 05:20 PM
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Towinz,

Bro, you need to get your dispensations striaght. Christ already came once and he will come again a second time. He will com ina cloud to receive the Body of Christ Only and some time after that the great tribulation starts.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Most of your scriptures are Tribulational Dispensation and even salvation is different then than now. Matt 24-25 are tribulational scriptures which apply to Israel both in the dispensation of Law in preparation for the Kingdom (which was Christ main ministry when he was here preparing Israel only for the Kingdom)before the Great Trib and then some of it after the great trib starts and goes all the way until the Lord Returns to take his throne in his kingdom He will establish at teh end of the great trib. those scriptures literally cover three distinct time periods or dispensations.

IN the Book of Revelation is says to count the number of the man, 666. ok if your are in the tribulation but if you take that as a doctrine to practice today you would be labeling everyone a anti-christ. so you just need to get some dispensational understanding. Tim Mortons book is available on line and if I had written one it would have exactly as he states except for secret rapture of the body of Christ. read it it will belss your study and help you iron out the rough spots in your theology. www.preservedwords.com/books.html

Last edited by chette777; 05-26-2008 at 05:29 PM.
  #13  
Old 05-26-2008, 05:41 PM
toiwnz toiwnz is offline
 
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This I know. I know Jesus came once and I know He's coming a second time. I'm just want to know where the scriptures are that says the second coming is a two phase thing were some believers are taken before the tribulation and some believers after the tribulation. Aren't both set's of believers apart of the body of Christ?

As for the scripture provided what about the verses that come before 17 that state

Quote:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
16 talks about a loud, audible, visible return. My last question is when did salvation change? How is it different today compared to yesterday?

Quote:
Most of your scriptures are Tribulational Dispensation and even salvation is different then than now. Matt 24-25 are tribulational scriptures which apply to Israel both in the dispensation of Law in preparation for the Kingdom (which was Christ main ministry when he was here preparing Israel only for the Kingdom)before the Great Trib and then some of it after the great trib starts and goes all the way until the Lord Returns to take his throne in his kingdom

Here's post I had on another forum.

Last edited by toiwnz; 05-26-2008 at 05:56 PM.
  #14  
Old 05-26-2008, 05:44 PM
toiwnz toiwnz is offline
 
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This is a post I had from another forum


I'm not trying to offend anybody or open a can of worms. The important thing is that we are all eagerly awaiting the return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, wether that return be pre, mid, or post tribulation. I think I was in the 6th or 7th grade when the first "Left Behind" book came out. I read them and was instantly hooked. I brought the books on prophechy by Mr. LaHaye and followed his work closely. It wasn't until I learned a valuable life lesson before I started questioning his books. My teacher taught me that I have to read everything before I sign a paper. I applied this to this subject. I had only one side of the story. I only read the verses that Mr. LaHaye gave me instead of reading all of the verses concerning the subject. Once realizing this another life lesson came which was


Quote:
Proverbs 18:13-13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him

So I had to hear the whole matter. After looking at the history of the pre-trib doctrine I just didn't see it fully lining up with scriptures. I couldn't ignore the verses I stated before. I couldn't ignore the fact the even the pre-trib authors stated that it was a new doctrine. I couldn't ignore verses such as


Quote:
Acts 1:9-11-
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven

II Corinthians 6:2-
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Revelation 22:11,12
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be

Acts 14:22
22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

II Timothy 3:12
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution

Revelation 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen

Matthew 24:27
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be

Matthew 24:30-31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

The list goes on and on. Yes I know some believe that all these verses refer to the saints in the tribulation or refer to the "second phase of the second coming." When the disciple left the mount of olives after Jesus left they went back to their homes knowing persuction was coming. They knew death was coming. They also new that they had a job for the Master to do despite the trials, tribulations, and persucution. They were willing to work all the way up the time Jesus returned. I don't see what has changed since then. I'm a Marine and as a Marine I would fight a battle all the way to end. We're taught not to look for escape routes or shortcuts but fight to the end. I'm not saying this view influences my view of the scriptures. Jesus gave the parable to occupy until the master returned


Quote:
Luke 19:13
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

Like I said before I not trying to kick anybody or pounce on anyone's faith. Neither am I tying to open a can of worms. I'm just stating that at one time I followed the fairly new doctrine of pre-tribulation rapture but once I read the rest of the verses dealing with the second coming (not just the ones pre-trib authors gave) I saw both sides of the story. I'll say this last part and be done. Pre-trib get there view of the catching away of the saints from the Daniel chapter 9. They say the last week hasn't been fulfilled. A quote from Steve Wohlber author of "End Time Delusions state


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It is illogical to insert a 2,00 year gap between the 69th and 70th week. No hint of a gap is found in the prophecy itself. There is no gap between the first seven weeks and the following sixty-two weeks, so why insert one between the 69th and 70th week? If you told your child to be in bed in 70 minutes, you obviously would mean 70 consecutive minutes. What if five hours later your fully awake son said, 'But dad, I know 69 minutes have passed, but the 70th minute hasn't started yet!'? After receiving the appropriate punishment, he would be swiftly sent to bed. Daniel 9:27 says nothing about a seven year period of 'tribulation

"MY OPINION"- is that a rebuilt jewish temple would be offence against the work of God after He sent His only Begotten Son who died and fulfilled the law and daily sacrifice. To build another temple in order to start the daily sacrifice for the covering of Sins is just wrong. Pre, mid, post trib doctrines can sometimes be confusing, frustrating, and a division maker. I think the coming of Christ is simple. He said he would return and I believe it. I leave with this verse. I'm not saying I'm applying this to anybody here, I'm apply it constantly to myself when I try bring hard confusing things concerning scripture into my life. I leave it becaue it might help someone else like it does me.


Quote:
II Corinthians 11:3
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ

Last edited by toiwnz; 05-26-2008 at 05:50 PM.
  #15  
Old 05-27-2008, 01:29 AM
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Toiwnz,

Thanks for the post brother. I hope this will generate a thoughtful discussion.

My testimony is the opposite. I was immersed in the doctrines that you are espousing and then I came into contact with premillenial, pretribulational dispensationalism. It took about a year of study (2+ and still going, really) before I could actually say that I really believed in things like the rapture. Needless to say other people were not happy with this, but I gave them a fair chance to state their case.

One time you said...

Quote:
This I know. I know Jesus came once and I know He's coming a second time.
This is interesting because the first coming of Christ was in two parts. First He came and appeared to believers only. Mary, Joseph, Shepherds, gentile kings. The second part of His appearing was his ministry to the lost sheep of the children of Israel.(Matt 15:24)

Why is it hard to believe that his first coming would be similar to his second coming? These two "appearances" were about 30 years apart. Why is a seven year difference so unbelievable?

I also researched the idea that these ideas are new. Much of that has to do with Roman suppression after Constantine "converted". He wanted the "new world order" to be positive and began suppressing the "Negative" pretrib, premillenialists. I would say that these doctrines were REDISCOVERED.

There is much more to be said on this issue. I hope this provokes some good discussion.
  #16  
Old 05-27-2008, 05:10 AM
toiwnz toiwnz is offline
 
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I too hope that it will generate a thoughtful discussion. And thoughtful being the key word. It saddens me when brothers and sisters argue and fight in a forum such as this over Biblical issues such as this. Like I stated before, We're all eagerly waiting for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returns not matter if we're pre,mid, or post trib.

Easy can you please explain to me a little better the two phase coming of Jesus' first coming? When did the first phase start and end? Did it end when the scriptures stop recording His life at 12? And if that is the case what about when He taught at the temple?

As for the history of the doctrine. That's the first time I heard it was suppressed. I don't see how after Jesus ascended to Heaven in Acts, that the Apostles were waiting for visible, audible, and glorius return of Jesus.

The pre-trib doctrine keeps bringing to "MY" mind and escape route. God has poured out judgment and wrath on people and nations before. My question is what makes us today so much better than brothers and sisters of the past. What I mean is during the time of Nero the christians then were going through persucution and tribulation just as the scriptures said we go through in this life. Why do we get to escape and they didn't? What about during the inqusition? Thousands of Martyrs standing up for Christ were burned at the steak or tortued by the inqusition counsel. Why do we escape and they didn't?

Some say that since God hath not appointed us to wrath that we must escape. This is an assumption at best. The scriptures tell us that we're not appointed to wrath but were do they say we escape? Is God not all powerful and almighty to pour out His wrath and judgment on the nations and keep his children safe?

Also I still trying to get an answer to chette777's post which said salvation is different today then it was then.

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chette777
Most of your scriptures are Tribulational Dispensation and even salvation is different then than now.
  #17  
Old 05-27-2008, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toiwnz View Post
This I know. I know Jesus came once and I know He's coming a second time. I'm just want to know where the scriptures are that says the second coming is a two phase thing were some believers are taken before the tribulation and some believers after the tribulation.
Hi toiwnz,

I think maybe before understanding why Jesus is coming again, you may need to understanding that He is in two phases. He is first coming in the air to receive His curch.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

God is dealing with His church now. He will deal again with the nation of Israel AFTER he receives His church, His bride. He came in the clouds for His bride. He will come to the earth in judgment of Israel and the nations.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

I believe these verse identify Jesus Christ coming in the clouds, then coming again TO the earth. Then you must ask yourself why in the clouds, then to the earth. These questions are answered when we understand who in particular the Lord is dealing with, how, and at what point in time. God has a plan for His church, and a plan for Israel. These plans are best understood in light of dispensational theology. The whys of these questions will then fall into place.

Last edited by Debau; 05-27-2008 at 07:12 AM.
  #18  
Old 05-27-2008, 07:44 AM
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Default The "Two-phased" Coming of our Lord Jesus

A thorough study of scripture will reveal two distinct parts to the Second Coming of Christ. Comparing the following verses, they cannot be ONE event.

Phase One: The Rapture of the Church

1. Coming alone to leave Jn 14:1-3, I Thess. 4:16
2. Coming for saints I Thess. 4:16-17
3. Mystery I Cor. 15:51
4. Appearing II Tim. 4:1
5. Personal II Thess. 4:16-17
6. In the air II Thess. 4:16-17
7. No signs I Cor. 15:51-52
8. Bodies changed Phil. 3:20-21
9. Antichrist revealed II Thess. 2:3
10. Called "blessed hope" Titus 2:13

Phase Two: The Second Advent of Christ

1. Coming with angels to stay Mt. 25:31
2. Coming with saints Jude 14
3. Prophesy (major/minor prophets)
4. Kingdom II Tim. 4:1 (see also II Thess. 2:1)
5. Public Rev. 1:7
6. On earth Zech. 14:4
7. Signs Joel 2:30, Matt. 24:30
8. Earth changed Matt. 19:28
9. Antichrist removed Rev. 19:20
10. Called "wrath" II Thess. 1:7-9
  #19  
Old 05-27-2008, 10:49 AM
Easy E Easy E is offline
 
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Thanks PBIwolski. That list is gonna be copied into my Bible. We're supposed to "mark" it right! Jer 23:18

toiwnz,

Well, I don't know what else to say about the first coming of Christ being a "type" of the second coming. Regarding the particulars, obviously there will be some differences. Nonetheless, did you ever notice that at the first coming Rome controlled the world. I'll give you one guess as to who will be in charge at the second coming.

Also, regarding the times Christ pops up between the first and second apearances; there are good indications that Jesus will appear on earth during the Tribulation. You hit one on the head and that is the "picture" of Christ at twelve years old, debating Jewish scholars. Jesus appears all throughout history to "His People" (always a reference to the Jews not the Church). Remember S, M, and A in the fiery furnance. That was Jesus in there.

About the "escape route" I think that there is a misunderstanding here. This world is never easy. Every Christian who is living right knows that. But the whole point of the Rapture doctrine is that God is gonna renew his dealings with Israel (READ: Not the Church). My question is, Toiwnz, do you understand that? That is the essence of this doctrine. We are talking about Romans 11. When you start to understand that, then the timing and the differences between the two appearings make sense.

Finally, about the different salvations - Remember that we must Rightly Divide the Bible (II Tim 2:15). Knowing this, remember that even though all scripture is for us (I Tim 3:16) not all of it is to us (I Peter 3:15,16). A lot of the doctrinal heresies that are taught out there (7th day adventists, Campbellites, etc) have not figured these things out. When God is dealing with Israel, He gives them physical signs to show that He is with them (I Cor 1:22). Because He gives them signs that they can see to believe, faith alone cannot save. Therefore in the Tribulation, when God is giving signs again, salvation will be by faith to start with and is completed by works because God is dealing with Israel. Today we have no signs except the sign of Jonah (Matt 12:39-41). This is why the PreTrib, PreMill doctrine is important, because right now, Christians get to heaven by grace through faith plus Nuttin.
  #20  
Old 05-27-2008, 11:05 AM
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pbiwolski,

Hey, Phase One #5 and #6 should be First Thess not second. Unless, I have the wrong Bible...
 

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