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  #11  
Old 03-26-2008, 10:40 AM
Connie
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I just carefully read through your post, George, and you show clearly that the sign gifts have ended, using the same scriptures the men I quoted also used. This line of reasoning from the scriptures is fairly new to me and has been more effective than anything else so far in convincing me that the gifts of the Spirit are not for today, and helping me renounce for good the supposed tongue-speaking I had but never felt right about. (I was praying out loud in my bedroom one morning in the early 90s when these sounds suddenly came out instead of English. I discovered I could make them come out any time I wanted after that. It never felt worshipful or holy, never felt right at all, but I definitely was not doing this myself. This continued after I left the charismatic movement, although I asked the Lord many times to take it away if it wasn't from Him. It never went away, I would just sometimes say these sounds out of the blue, so I remained in doubt. It wasn't until very recently, thanks to teaching like yours, that I was finally completely convinced I had to work to rid myself of it, resist it with determination, and I'm still not completely rid of it).

I think you are right that it's mostly women who get this "gift." The very first one to experience it under Charles Parham's teaching was a woman, and it's interesting that the charismatic movement accepts women preachers, which is clearly against the scripture. However, it has been men who have taught these things and promoted them, such as Charles Parham. Even some of the greatest Christian men have accepted the gifts as legitimate, and chide people for doubting that they are from God. It's distressing to me that great teachers like A W Tozer and Andrew Murray and Martyn Lloyd Jones, some of my most favorite teachers, treat these phenomena as legitimate. Leonard Ravenhill, who taught a solidly God-centered call to holiness and revival, criticized those who don't accept the gifts as part of God's coming in revival, while yet strongly advocating that we seek revival. I want revival but I know that if it comes with tongues or prophecy that it's bogus. None of these men claimed the gifts for themselves but by allowing them as legitimate expressions of God's power for today they allowed demons into OTHER people's lives.

Emphasizing scripture is of course always right, BUT we have to have pastors and teachers to interpret for us, as rightly dividing the word of truth isn't just automatic on hearing or reading the word, and even with study people disagree on the meaning of different parts of scripture.

"Tongues" seems to be different than the other "gifts of the Spirit" since scripture says it was meant for unbelieving Jews. As for the other gifts, as Jerry says in his answer to me, there is a big difference between God's giving healing, or wisdom or discernment in answer to prayer for dealing with particular situations, which of course He continues to do, and the gift of any of these to individuals as they were given to the apostles. But I've continued to wonder all these years about phenomena like the inner "voice" I mentioned above, which isn't one of the "gifts" but is certainly supernatural. I haven't experienced it in years but I also feel I need to know for sure how to tell if something like that is from the Lord or not so I can resist it consistently if it's not. Perhaps the "fruit" is the only test. Since none of these things has done anything to further my walk in holiness perhaps that's all that needs to be said.

Last edited by Connie; 03-26-2008 at 10:45 AM.
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  #12  
Old 03-26-2008, 11:28 AM
Connie
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Oh, and as for men promoting the gifts, we have the example right here on this forum of three men who claim they are for today, and NO women making that claim.
  #13  
Old 03-26-2008, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Connie View Post
I haven't experienced it in years but I also feel I need to know for sure how to tell if something like that is from the Lord or not so I can resist it consistently if it's not. Perhaps the "fruit" is the only test. Since none of these things has done anything to further my walk in holiness perhaps that's all that needs to be said.
It seems that you are to some extent testing the spirits. I assume that in the years that these things have decreased that you have also experienced growth in the Lord? This should also help give you assurance.

When I attended the Assembly of God church I experienced what I could only call great spiritual warfare. It was a very frightening thing to me. I wanted to accept what they taught. Their teachings were, to say the least, fascinating. Yet there was just so much I couldn't reconcile. This seemed to cause me fear and confusion.
Quote:
2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Quote:
1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Only once in one of my deepest struggles did I hear a voice. To be honest I'm still uncomfortable even mentioning it. The words were clear and I still remember them. Yet to this day I still have no idea what they mean. I think this goes back to your questioning whether if they were from the Lord they would be edifying and serve some purpose. Would God speak in a riddle that is still meaningless to me 20 some years later? Again God is not the author of confusion.
  #14  
Old 03-26-2008, 02:03 PM
Connie
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Thank you so much for your support, Jeff, and for mentioning that you too have heard a voice. Yes, it is very hard to bring up these things, but the reality of demonic involvement really needs to be acknowledged, and really, how can we test the spirits effectively unless it is acknowledged? Those who just declare that they are sure their own experiences of these phenomena are from the Lord without offering any information by which they might be tested are very much at fault.

Yes, fear and confusion ARE the effect in those churches on people who have some spiritual discernment. But if you mention having such confusion they will pompously misapply the verse that the Lord is not the author of confusion, by which they mean that somehow if you are experiencing such a state it's your own fault, without offering a shred of hope to resolve it, but of course the confusion is the natural effect of somehow knowing this isn't the voice of our Shepherd we're hearing while being told that it is. Truly, even the elect can be just about deceived in these terrible days. There must be many of the Lord's in those churches.

You've probably hit on it: It certainly doesn't seem that God would speak to you in a meaningless riddle. During a period when I was not yet a believer in Christ but had come to believe in supernatural reality I had a very strange riddle-like vision that had me puzzling over its meaning for years, involving words and numbers written in white by an unseen hand on black space. Very spooky. The devil must delight in getting us to wrack our brains over such things that merely distract us from serving the Lord.

Yes, maybe we can agree at least that whatever comes from the Lord would be edifying and serve some purpose in some way we can point to. That's not a specific test given in so many words in scripture as far as I recall, but it's certainly in the spirit of scripture.

This stuff makes me mad when I see how I've been dragged through all that deception, and you too, and how others still are, and how they continue to assert that the gifts are genuine and for today based really only on their own experience and a verse or two of scripture. I'm grateful to be finally getting free of it but there are still lingering effects. These things are oppressive and discouraging at the very least. When will total freedom come?

Last edited by Connie; 03-26-2008 at 02:07 PM.
  #15  
Old 03-26-2008, 02:54 PM
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Sorry it is taking me a while to read through this thread and check out what you are saying. Just wanted to caution you against that scionofzion website - from checking out some of it today, I can see they are Calvinistic and spiritualize Scripture (in one article the author states he believes in Amillenialism - which certainly avoids taking endtimes theology literally).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Connie View Post
What if you had the impression of the Lord speaking to you within yourself? Let me try to be very clear. I have on two occasions in the past heard a voice inside my head I immediately knew was a demon. One said "she is praying to Jesus Christ," and that was before I was saved, the other, years later, said the name of a woman my whole church was praying for, as if to insist that I pray for her, although I was already doing that. In any case, whatever the message, I knew immediately they were demons. I had no doubt whatsoever...

Others simply reassured me that if I have the Holy Spirit I can't have a demon inside me. Well, can they then project their voices inside a person's head from outside?
I don't believe the Lord would speak to you audibly before you were saved. It certainly appears to be a demonic trick. I know various people whom the devil scares away from the Lord or from walking closely to the Lord after salvation, by revealing to them the Lord's big plans for them - then they get so focussed on that and either think they are spiritually elite OR get afraid to walk with the Lord because they "just aren't ready" to face whatever they think God wanted them to do. God's plans for someone's life starts with salvation - and the work of the Holy Spirit is to get them the Gospel, convict them of their sins and enlighten them to the truth - not reveal His "big plans" for their lives before they even come to Him for salvation.

The Holy Spirit speaks to me by way of conviction, bringing Scripture back to mind - and it is clear - not some vague impression. It is not an audible voice - though I have had that once or twice. It was so loud, I could not be sure if it was in my heard or if I actually heard it. However, I don't think it was from God, because it bore no fruit, and actually caused me uncertainty. There have been several "visions" of sorts I have had as a young believer - which were like some horoscope - so vague it could mean anything. It seemed like the Devil was trying to get me to rely on impressions and dreams, etc. rather than on the Word of God. When looked at in light of God's Word, I rejected them - and have had a more stable walk with the Lord than those other Christians that I see always looking for signs, visions, prophecies, impressions.

And why would the Lord bother to tell you something you already knew? Yes, the Holy Spirit often reinforces things to us - but this seems redundant, in light of the fact you were already praying for her.

I do not believe the Devil or demons can indwell or possess a believer - but they can certainly oppress and even influence to a certain point, if you allow him some footholds - look at Ananias and Sapphira: "why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?" In a time of spiritual warfare as a young believer, I literally heard a demonic voice in my bedroom. It scared the daylights out of me (though I could not understand the growling words). I don't want to scare anyone, so I won't relive it for you - though it certainly seemed like the Devil was trying to scare me spiritually. These two passages helped: 2 Timothy 1:7 and James 4:7.

So can the Devil make you hear an audible voice? Yes, he even appears as an angel of light to deceive others. Does the Holy Spirit speak audibly to believers? I do not find that in the Bible - I find in the Bible, He guides by the still small voice of conviction/conscience (when reinforced or retrained by the Word of God), Scripture reminders, and inner promptings (not sure what else to call it - but when it happens, you know it is the Holy Spirit prompting you, there is a certainty with it).

Quote:
What about the experience I had once of having a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses come to the door and I prayed for an answer to them, and "I will not give My glory to another" from Isaiah came immediately to mind. Now THAT has to be the Lord, surely.
Sounds like it is the Holy Spirit - answering your prayers for wisdom with Scripture related to what you were dealing with.

One thing that bothers me is that those who we believe have false gifts (because we believe those sign gifts are done away with) have redefined those gifts. There is nowhere in Scripture where a word of wisdom or a word of knowledge is defined. They either make it refer to wisdom or knowledge in general - therefore they cannot believe they are done away with - OR they define it themselves as some kind of prophetic sense from God, in addition to the Word of God. Those who promote these generally have less respect for and reliance upon the Bible. I believe God gives wisdom and knowledge in answer to prayer and in accordance with His Word - not in contradiction to it or addition to it.

Quote:
It's very upsetting because it makes me wonder if the Lord is with me at all.

Perhaps just more intensive study of the Bible will do it.
It sounds like you are on the right track - wanting to make sure all you believe and are involved in is from God. Stick with His Word, keep praying for wisdom. If there is confusion or chaos, it is not from Him - if there is a sense of peace of mind and assurance, it is.

Hope that helps. I still have a little more of this thread to read.
  #16  
Old 03-26-2008, 05:29 PM
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Aloha Connie,

This has been very instructive and beneficial to me. (The testimony from all of the brethren).

However, let me be real clear - I do not excuse any man for teaching or participating in false doctrine; leaven of any kind; or false teachings. (I wasn't purposely "picking" on women - I was just testifying to what I observed while I attended a Pentacostal church which, by the way, was always pastored by a man.)

I would like to clarify one other thing. You said - and I Quote: "Emphasizing scripture is of course always right, BUT we have to have pastors and teachers to interpret for us, as rightly dividing the word of truth isn't just automatic on hearing or reading the word, and even with study people disagree on the meaning of different parts of scripture."

Pastors/elders/teachers are not called of God to "interpret" the word of God for God's people (although a lot of that goes on today). 2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (the word "prophecy" means both "foretelling" and "forthtelling").

Elders/pastors/teachers are given to the church of God for the purpose of "feeding" (Primarily); "warning"; "admonishing"; "reproving"; and "rebuking". We should leave the interpretation of the scriptures up to the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit convinces you of a Bible truth - it will "stick"; if I convince someone of a "truth" they may accept it for a while, but if someone comes along who happens to be more "persuasive" than I, that person might be talked out of their faith or belief in God's word.

1John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1John 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

This truth applies not only to men - but includes women also!
  #17  
Old 03-27-2008, 01:27 AM
Connie
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Hello Jerry.

Quote:
Just wanted to caution you against that scionofzion website - from checking out some of it today, I can see they are Calvinistic and spiritualize Scripture (in one article the author states he believes in Amillenialism - which certainly avoids taking endtimes theology literally).
I didn't read the site as thoroughly as you did so thanks for the heads up. However, if I find a good discussion of a particular issue I'll take it on its own merits even if it's in a theological camp I disagree with. As a matter of fact I haven't yet found a theological camp I completely agree with. I don't hold to a strict end times position although I am a futurist and I do believe we're right on the edge of major fulfillment of end times prophecy. I am not completely convinced of the pretrib Rapture viewpoint, I simply consider it a possibility. But I do consider myself a Calvinist so that wouldn't be a problem with that site for me anyway.

Quote:
Quote:
What if you had the impression of the Lord speaking to you within yourself? Let me try to be very clear. I have on two occasions in the past heard a voice inside my head I immediately knew was a demon. One said "she is praying to Jesus Christ," and that was before I was saved, the other, years later, said the name of a woman my whole church was praying for, as if to insist that I pray for her, although I was already doing that. In any case, whatever the message, I knew immediately they were demons. I had no doubt whatsoever...

Others simply reassured me that if I have the Holy Spirit I can't have a demon inside me. Well, can they then project their voices inside a person's head from outside?
I don't believe the Lord would speak to you audibly before you were saved. It certainly appears to be a demonic trick. I know various people whom the devil scares away from the Lord or from walking closely to the Lord after salvation, by revealing to them the Lord's big plans for them - then they get so focussed on that and either think they are spiritually elite OR get afraid to walk with the Lord because they "just aren't ready" to face whatever they think God wanted them to do.
That's very interesting. Yes! You just reminded me that the worst effect of the supernatural experiences I've had is that they've scared me away from extensive prayer, especially prayer and fasting, and I've had to work to overcome that effect, because I've been afraid some sort of command will be given that I won't fully understand or be able to judge if it's from the Lord or not. That turmoil in itself is no doubt a clue that ALL those things were NEVER from the Lord. Yes, some of it seemed to define a calling for me, but nothing I could ever figure out how to live up to. It would be a great relief to be able to know for certain it was all fake.

Quote:
God's plans for someone's life starts with salvation - and the work of the Holy Spirit is to get them the Gospel, convict them of their sins and enlighten them to the truth - not reveal His "big plans" for their lives before they even come to Him for salvation.
No, of course not. Certainly that vision I had before I was saved I knew wasn't from the Lord, it was like a puzzle I got obsessed with solving, a threatening sort of puzzle rather than a calling, threatening death it seemed, to whom was not clear. I'd worry, Is that number a date or a time of day or what does it mean? If the date was looming I'd worry. (Before I was saved I had been involved in some occult practices for two or three years, so there's plenty of reason for me to have demonic activity in my life at that time, and some experiences during that period were quite frightening.)

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The Holy Spirit speaks to me by way of conviction, bringing Scripture back to mind - and it is clear - not some vague impression.
He does that with me too, so I can trust those experiences.

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It is not an audible voice - though I have had that once or twice. It was so loud, I could not be sure if it was in my heard or if I actually heard it.
And thank YOU too for reporting that experience. I'd thought I was all alone with this sort of thing but hearing from others that I'm not is very reassuring. That voice that said the name of the woman to pray for was also very loud, would have been painfully loud if it had been a real voice outside of me. But I knew it was inside, and it had a strange hollow echoing effect. The other voice wasn't loud but sounded weirdly like the voice of the "chipmunk song" if you know what I mean. I had no doubt these were demonic even at the time. It was that voice-that-wasn't-a-voice but almost a writing in the region of my heart that I've had doubts about for years. That voice corrected me mildly about a few things, about not fully fasting when I'd started to fast a couple of times for instance. "Are you fasting?" was the whole message on one occasion. It seemed that one had to be the Lord, but as I said there was also no fruit from it. Just another "unfruitful work of darkness?"

[Aside: This all reminds me that Scott Johnson who has an ongoing series on end times phenomena, false teachers, the charismatic movement and related things at Sermon Audio, has given a teaching on "Maitreya" a demon-possessed man he believes could be the coming Antichrist (with the Pope the False Prophet perhaps), and he believes that this person plans to communicate by telepathy into the heads of all humanity when he comes, to convince them that he's "The Christ" (The New Age Christ). Whether he could do this by telepathy or by having billions of demons set up to speak into billions of heads is a question but either way I guess it's possible, just gives me the willies to think of it. Johnson's teachings can be over the top, especially when he gets into major conspiracy theories, and his manner can be a tad abrasive too, but he knows his scripture and he does his homework and I've learned quite a bit from him.]

Quote:
However, I don't think it was from God, because it bore no fruit, and actually caused me uncertainty.
Yes, bore no fruit, caused uncertainty. All this is helping me so much. These really are important criteria for recognizing the works of the devil that otherwise are so confusing.

One thing that has made all this hard to sort out is the idea that if you are really saved and really have the Holy Spirit the demons cannot do such things to you. So for long periods I've worried that maybe I'm not really saved, though I've done everything and believed everything that should show that I am. If these things did not make you question your salvation you must have had a stronger grounding than I have had. But I suppose getting me to doubt my salvation is one of the objectives of such demonic communications anyway, a form of bad fruit.


Quote:
There have been several "visions" of sorts I have had as a young believer - which were like some horoscope - so vague it could mean anything. It seemed like the Devil was trying to get me to rely on impressions and dreams, etc. rather than on the Word of God.
Yes, that is probably his objective too, isn't it? When you have a strong personal experience it is very hard to convince yourself it should be rejected as not from the Lord. At least that has been the case with me. I'm impressed that you have had the spiritual strength to overcome these things, apparently so much easier than I.

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When looked at in light of God's Word, I rejected them - and have had a more stable walk with the Lord than those other Christians that I see always looking for signs, visions, prophecies, impressions.
Well, you are helping me now get over my own anxieties and wonderings about the meanings of such experiences. Finding the right scripture to apply to these things isn't easy, especially when there are so many rival interpretations of various verses.

Quote:
And why would the Lord bother to tell you something you already knew? Yes, the Holy Spirit often reinforces things to us - but this seems redundant, in light of the fact you were already praying for her.
Yes, but I did say in that case I knew immediately that was a demon and not the Lord, and the chipmunky voice I also knew wasn't God just because of the ridiculous tone of it, even before I was a Christian (I HAD come to believe in God, even the God of the Bible, but I had not yet understood who Jesus Christ was at that time.) The question NOW becomes why would a demon do something that loud and obvious and ridiculous? Perhaps to get me to accept that OTHER milder and more temperate "voice" that was more like a writing that seemed to be appropriately addressed to my real situation? Perhaps these are trial runs for "Maitreya's" debut?

Quote:
I do not believe the Devil or demons can indwell or possess a believer - but they can certainly oppress and even influence to a certain point, if you allow him some footholds - look at Ananias and Sapphira: "why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?"
It's hard to avoid allowing footholds when you are confused about what's true and what's false. I know I'm not "possessed" in the sense of controlled by them, I possess my own mind (well, I do get distracted easily and my thoughts get muddied when I'm trying to pray and read scripture... ) but I haven't yet seen anything in scripture that proves to me they can't occupy a human body even of a believer.

Quote:
In a time of spiritual warfare as a young believer, I literally heard a demonic voice in my bedroom. It scared the daylights out of me (though I could not understand the growling words). I don't want to scare anyone, so I won't relive it for you - though it certainly seemed like the Devil was trying to scare me spiritually. These two passages helped: 2 Timothy 1:7 and James 4:7.
(I think I'm going to order the Swordsearcher program after all. It makes it easy to look up scriptures when they come up). I'm SO grateful to hear someone confess to such experiences, thank you so much. I have a friend who experienced a frightening evil presence in her bedroom at the beginning of her salvation out of Catholicism, but it didn't make a noise. I had some very scary experiences during that period of my occultic dabbling before becoming a believer. The 23rd psalm, which was about all I could remember from my childhood churchgoing, and some lines from the Lord's Prayer, was what got me through that time. I've been aware of presences at many other times that have not manifested in any particular way since becoming a believer. Just remembered another time though: Once while visiting some charismatic Christians out of town something tried to strangle me in my bed --I pled the blood of Jesus Christ and it stopped. I need to learn spiritual warfare much better, though, how to wield the word on such occasions.

Thanks partly to Scott Johnson's teachings, I'm anticipating demonic activity to a frightening extent in the near future. What I worry about the most is the unsaved people in my family, although I know I myself need much better preparation in scripture for such a time -- if of course the church is going to go through it.

Quote:
So can the Devil make you hear an audible voice? Yes, he even appears as an angel of light to deceive others.
But an audible voice INSIDE your head that nobody else can hear? Can he do that from outside your head?

Quote:
Does the Holy Spirit speak audibly to believers? I do not find that in the Bible -
Does He write things across your heart region? I'm now pretty much convinced that wasn't the Lord either though. Bit by bit I'm ridding myself of all those old experiences I've wondered about for so long.

Quote:
I find in the Bible, He guides by the still small voice of conviction/conscience (when reinforced or retrained by the Word of God), Scripture reminders, and inner promptings (not sure what else to call it - but when it happens, you know it is the Holy Spirit prompting you, there is a certainty with it).
I hope the Lord will lead me to that same certainty you have.

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Quote:
What about the experience I had once of having a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses come to the door and I prayed for an answer to them, and "I will not give My glory to another" from Isaiah came immediately to mind. Now THAT has to be the Lord, surely.
Sounds like it is the Holy Spirit - answering your prayers for wisdom with Scripture related to what you were dealing with.
Thank you. I think I can rest in that one and others like it.

Quote:
One thing that bothers me is that those who we believe have false gifts (because we believe those sign gifts are done away with) have redefined those gifts. There is nowhere in Scripture where a word of wisdom or a word of knowledge is defined. They either make it refer to wisdom or knowledge in general - therefore they cannot believe they are done away with - OR they define it themselves as some kind of prophetic sense from God, in addition to the Word of God. Those who promote these generally have less respect for and reliance upon the Bible. I believe God gives wisdom and knowledge in answer to prayer and in accordance with His Word - not in contradiction to it or addition to it.

Quote:
It's very upsetting because it makes me wonder if the Lord is with me at all.

Perhaps just more intensive study of the Bible will do it.
It sounds like you are on the right track - wanting to make sure all you believe and are involved in is from God. Stick with His Word, keep praying for wisdom. If there is confusion or chaos, it is not from Him - if there is a sense of peace of mind and assurance, it is.

Hope that helps. I still have a little more of this thread to read.
Does help, a lot. Appreciate it very much. Sorry to go on at such length -- now it will be even harder to get through this thread -- but I'm SO happy to get to discuss these things with people.

Last edited by Connie; 03-27-2008 at 01:30 AM.
  #18  
Old 03-27-2008, 02:02 AM
Connie
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Aloha back, George.

Quote:
This has been very instructive and beneficial to me. (The testimony from all of the brethren).
I'm glad. Sometime I'd like to get to the bottom of just what a woman is permitted to do according to the Lord if you'd like to pursue that topic again. What if I started a blog to air my opinions about a lot of things? But that's off topic here.

Quote:
However, let me be real clear - I do not excuse any man for teaching or participating in false doctrine; leaven of any kind; or false teachings. (I wasn't purposely "picking" on women - I was just testifying to what I observed while I attended a Pentacostal church which, by the way, was always pastored by a man.)
I understood that, but you did remind me of all the men teachers I've admired who haven't helped me get free of these things but kept me confirmed in them, and these are men I STILL learn from and admire for the majority of their teaching.

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I would like to clarify one other thing. You said - and I Quote:
Quote:
"Emphasizing scripture is of course always right, BUT we have to have pastors and teachers to interpret for us, as rightly dividing the word of truth isn't just automatic on hearing or reading the word, and even with study people disagree on the meaning of different parts of scripture."
Pastors/elders/teachers are not called of God to "interpret" the word of God for God's people (although a lot of that goes on today). 2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (the word "prophecy" means both "foretelling" and "forthtelling").

Elders/pastors/teachers are given to the church of God for the purpose of "feeding" (Primarily); "warning"; "admonishing"; "reproving"; and "rebuking". We should leave the interpretation of the scriptures up to the Holy Spirit.
Doesn't "feeding" mean feeding us the word?

Quote:
If the Holy Spirit convinces you of a Bible truth - it will "stick"; if I convince someone of a "truth" they may accept it for a while, but if someone comes along who happens to be more "persuasive" than I, that person might be talked out of their faith or belief in God's word.
But don't you believe that the Holy Spirit also speaks to us through the pastors and teachers He places in those positions? Their teaching WILL stick if the Holy Spirit applies it to us. I get what you are saying in general, but, for instance, Timothy was called as a preacher and pastor, and Paul exhorted him to "preach the word" besides reproving and rebuking and exhorting (2 Tim 4:2). When they preach the word they have to explain it, there's no getting around that as part of the job. If they are much in prayer over their preaching they will be guided by the Holy Spirit a lot more than a preacher who prays little and relies on his intellect, and unfortunately there are many of those. And we can only glean the truth for ourselves out of what is preached to us through the Holy Spirit guiding us personally too, of course.

Quote:
1John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1John 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

This truth applies not only to men - but includes women also!
But obviously we don't all have the same degree of understanding of the scripture so these passages surely can't be meaning that we don't need any help from others who know more.

Last edited by Connie; 03-27-2008 at 02:09 AM.
  #19  
Old 03-29-2008, 11:17 AM
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A friend of mine, who is a Christian lady, is suffering from great pain and sickness. One night when she was in terrible pain she heard a voice say to her "I will heal you now," my friend said she felt a great euphoria and was revelling in this beautiful revelation when the same voice said "You just need to give up your salvation". That brought her back to earth with a bump and she immediately cried out "Never! I will never denounce my Lord Jesus!" and the voice went away.

I do believe that the Lord will sometimes speak to His children with a still small voice - or even with "...as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder:"; but we must be on guard because evil spirits can also 'sound' so comforting, or authoritative and can bring on a sense of euphoria as my friend experienced. This is why we must constantly immerse ourselves in God's Word so as not to be deceived.

Blessings
  #20  
Old 03-29-2008, 12:06 PM
jerry
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It's distressing to me that great teachers like A W Tozer and Andrew Murray and Martyn Lloyd Jones, some of my most favorite teachers, treat these phenomena as legitimate.
I stopped reading Tozer and Murray - they dabble too much into mysticism. If I read a New Age writer that made some of the statements these guys made, I would stay away from them - but too many Christians think mysticism is okay if you are a Christian. It is too subjective, depending upon personal experience and impressions, rather than the Word of God.
 

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