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  #31  
Old 12-12-2008, 08:59 PM
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Gord Gord is offline
 
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Originally Posted by BrianT View Post
George's original post said that heresy is opposition to "sound Biblical doctrine". I agree with this, but I asked George "Who gets to authoritatively decide what is sound Biblical Doctrine?". His response was:


George said "Ultimately I do", but I think he meant that in a personal sense and not a global sense (i.e. I don't think he meant that he gets to decide authoritatively for everyone else). The problem with this response is that it doesn't answer the question. I asked: who gets to authoritatively decide what is sound Biblical Doctrine? If George ultimately does for himself (even though he seeks out God's mind in the process) while someone else decides for themselves (who also seeks out God's mind in the process) but comes to a different conclusion, neither is authoritative. Both can call each other heretics, and neither can disprove the charge of heresy against themselves.

George's original post was good on the surface, but once thought through it implies that everyone should call everyone else a heretick at some point (unless they can demonstrate they are truly in 100% agreement on every single point of doctrine), and that even when doing so it's just a chaotic, unauthoritative mess. It's nothing but a source and excuse for schism (1 Cor 12:24) and division (Rom 16:17, 1 Cor 1:10, 1 Cor 3:3, etc.).
After reading this garbage, I would recommend immediate psychological help and earnest prayer, your perception on reality and truth, or even a simple task like quoting someone, is not anything close to reality.

Your ability to perceive and relate that what you have read is severely and obviously in need of help. Or.... you are just hear to spam.

I'll leave it to someone else to get us back on topic.

Last edited by Gord; 12-12-2008 at 09:09 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #32  
Old 12-13-2008, 08:58 AM
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Diligent Diligent is offline
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As Bro. George pointed out in his original post:
Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Who were "they?" And what was the "way?" This is when we first see heresy mentioned. Paul was believing contrary to the way of those who accuse him.

So to discern genuine heresy we must discriminate between a true way and a false way.

Getting details wrong is not automatically heresy, and to prove this we only need to read of Apollos:
Acts 18:24-25 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
Knowing only the Baptism of John, Apollos' knowledge and teaching was imperfect. But Apollos was immediately open to being perfected:
Acts 18:26-28 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

At least for me, this answers the "do you have to get everything right" question.

And we can't "weasel out" of calling out heretics by saying "well, we aren't the final authority, so we can say who is a heretic."
Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Obviously, Paul had a commandment here, not just a suggestion. So we have a responsibility to discern heresy.
  #33  
Old 12-13-2008, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianT View Post
George's original post said that heresy is opposition to "sound Biblical doctrine". I agree with this, but I asked George "Who gets to authoritatively decide what is sound Biblical Doctrine?". His response was:


George said "Ultimately I do", but I think he meant that in a personal sense and not a global sense (i.e. I don't think he meant that he gets to decide authoritatively for everyone else). The problem with this response is that it doesn't answer the question. I asked: who gets to authoritatively decide what is sound Biblical Doctrine? If George ultimately does for himself (even though he seeks out God's mind in the process) while someone else decides for themselves (who also seeks out God's mind in the process) but comes to a different conclusion, neither is authoritative. Both can call each other heretics, and neither can disprove the charge of heresy against themselves.

George's original post was good on the surface, but once thought through it implies that everyone should call everyone else a heretick at some point (unless they can demonstrate they are truly in 100% agreement on every single point of doctrine), and that even when doing so it's just a chaotic, unauthoritative mess. It's nothing but a source and excuse for schism (1 Cor 12:24) and division (Rom 16:17, 1 Cor 1:10, 1 Cor 3:3, etc.).

This is exactly the kind of unsure, uncertain, "there is no definite final authority on doctrine" mumbo-jumbo that corrupt perversions of God's Word have brought about.

Brian, haven't you ever heard a preacher say: "Don't take my word for it, read the Bible and see for yourself"? That's Biblical, just as the Bereans searched the scriptures and checked what Paul said to make sure they were correct.

1 John 2:27 says: "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

The Bible is our final authority, and the Holy Spirit teaches us sound dictrine. It is our job to study, pray, listen to the Holy Spirit, and trust God. Not a theologen, not scholars, not "the orginal manuscripts", which don't even exist. We are to trust God's Holy written Word, inspired, preserved, and perfect.
  #34  
Old 12-13-2008, 10:18 AM
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I agree Diligent. However, we're still stuck with the problem of two people, both reading the same translation and both believing and claiming they are being led/taught by the Holy Spirit, coming to opposing viewpoints. Both check the other's viewpoint in scripture (being Berean) and "discern" the other is in error.
  #35  
Old 12-13-2008, 11:15 AM
peopleoftheway peopleoftheway is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianT View Post
I agree Diligent. However, we're still stuck with the problem of two people, both reading the same translation and both believing and claiming they are being led/taught by the Holy Spirit, coming to opposing viewpoints. Both check the other's viewpoint in scripture (being Berean) and "discern" the other is in error.
First before I answer this quote may I address the Brethren first, George Forrest, Chette, Luke, Stephen, pbiwolski, Here am I, Renee, Billie, Tim and many more who I have come to be blessed by on this forum.
Apologies that I am not on here much as I still have no internet at home and do not wish to post in active topics when my reply to them is limited, but reading over the forums lately I have to post on this topic if I may.

Brian T whats the point? if you dont hold the 66 books of the KJB as the inerrent word of God, why even register with such a site, knowing first that anything you write or post is to sow discord among those who do believe in the preservation of Gods Holy infallible written word.
To answer you quoted post

Matthew 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

One MUST be right or else how shall the rest Stand in Truth

If two, three, four, five etc Brethren, lead by the Holy Spirit disagree on a point of doctrine, important and relevant to salvation, one MUST be right. Then must those Brethren reason together until the Spirit shows them all the truth for edification of each other. Sometimes we are lead by the Spirit in our own error in order to come to the Light of the perfect truth through another Brother or Sister.

Romans 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
Romans 15:2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.
Many times have I had a different viewpoint on a subject matter or a doctrine, and the proper use of the relevant scripture by another brother had guided me into the perfect truth of the matter through God's grace and His Holy Spirit, even a change of mind on the matter.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Now when the truth is made light the spirit will testify of the truth and lead the believer into the Light of that truth

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

I discern no desire in your posts for "truth" especially regarding matters of the Spirit and listening to his teaching and admonishing, but a more worldly ecumenical approach to your posting.

James4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Pay attention to the Light that is so apparently shining on you from the other Brethren on this site and submit yourself to the truth and ask yourself the question
John 18:38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.
  #36  
Old 12-13-2008, 01:51 PM
Scott Swart Scott Swart is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
Brian, I'm really attempting to discover what you are thinking.

Simple questions. Do you have a single resource for authoritative, sound, Biblical doctrine? Yes or no.

If yes, what is it?
The source has been outlined, it is the Word of God. We do not use anything less.
  #37  
Old 12-13-2008, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Swart View Post
The source has been outlined, it is the Word of God. We do not use anything less.
Thanks for a simple, straight, clear, honest answer. I agree...if you conclude that the preserved written word of God is in the King James Bible.
  #38  
Old 12-13-2008, 02:23 PM
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Forrest Forrest is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianT View Post
I agree Diligent. However, we're still stuck with the problem of two people, both reading the same translation and both believing and claiming they are being led/taught by the Holy Spirit, coming to opposing viewpoints. Both check the other's viewpoint in scripture (being Berean) and "discern" the other is in error.
BrianT--I will gladly consider differing views on Doctrine with a "brother" who "believes" the word of God is preserved, in the English language, in the 66 books found in the Authorized King James Bible. Otherwise, there is simply no authoritative, absolute word to discuss.

It's simple. God is all authority. God said He would preserve every word. I believe that He preserved His authoritative written word in the King James Bible.

You are focusing on man's authority, understanding, knowledge, and interpretation. It has already been established that man may get it wrong. But the FIRST issue that must be settled is: DO WE HAVE IN OUR POSSESSION TODAY THE PRESERVED WRITTEN WORD OF GOD, IN THE KING JAMES BIBLE?

You have already said you do not believe we do. I cannot discuss, learn, or be edified from someone who has no authoritative scripture.
  #39  
Old 12-13-2008, 03:09 PM
Scott Swart Scott Swart is offline
 
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I cannot use anything but the KJV, this is the Book that God used to show Himself to me (through His Holy Spirit), I do not hold it in the air and declare that this is the inspired Word of God "in the original autographs', the Book That I go by is able to compare to the "original autographs" and agree with them.
  #40  
Old 12-13-2008, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Swart View Post
I cannot use anything but the KJV, this is the Book that God used to show Himself to me (through His Holy Spirit), I do not hold it in the air and declare that this is the inspired Word of God "in the original autographs', the Book That I go by is able to compare to the "original autographs" and agree with them.
Do you believe it (King James Bible) is the preserved written word of God?
 

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