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  #91  
Old 07-26-2009, 04:47 AM
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greenbear greenbear is offline
 
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Amanda,

God created mankind with freewill and the ability to choose to either believe what He says about Himself or to believe a lie. I believe the Lord created mankind this way, different from the angelic host, for the purpose of sharing the love that the Godhead shares with Himself, with man. It's something infinitely better than what the angels have. The Father and His Son chose to incarnate His Son as a Man. For Eternity. Jesus will always be a Man. He will always have the scars in His hands and the hole in His side. He did that for us. For you and for me, and for the poverty-stricken black woman in Sub-Saharan Africa with a husband and co-wives, and children that they all raised together.

The quality of life that we enjoy in modern western society for the last 50, 100, 200 years is like a second in the 6000 years of human history. We are just a small fraction of a percent of the people who have lived on this earth. The vast, vast majority of human beings have lived lives of poverty, hunger, pain, suffering and spiritual darkness. In their struggle to survive they haven't had their piano lessons, their little league games, their computer time, their vacations and the relative ease that we enjoy today. We shouldn't look at human history or the Bible, which was finished over 2000 years ago, through our exalted perspective of our riches in Christ even now, or our material blessings. Most people haven't lived as we live.

God's plan for the redemption of men and women for Himself is much larger than our present church age. Women have been so blessed by the church type of marriage of one man and one wife. But it didn't used to be that way, and in some places it still isn't that way. I find polygamy much more than distasteful. It would never happen, but if my husband and I lived in a country which allowed for polygamy, and he decided to take another wife, I would leave him even if I had to live on the street as a beggar. I wouldn't if I had dependent children, though. It would be an act of supreme cruelty to me. But he would never do that to me. I believe the Lord would be angry at the cruelty. You and I weren't raised with the expectation or the ability to handle something like that. I can't imagine the jealousy and the hurt of having other wives competing for my husbands affections. Having him love another, younger wife better. Perhaps coming to despise me as I age. Men can do that. But we have to accept that having multiple wives is in the Law of Moses. We must recognize that women have had to bear that hardship for most of human history.

If we're honest with ourselves, I think it really is evident that there were men with more than one wife who were saved and came into the churches in Paul's day. Paul made clear that deacons, pastors, bishops, could only have one wife. He showed the pattern the church was to follow. There's no difference today. In heathen cultures where multiple wives are allowed by law, if a man with more than one wife is saved, he doesn't have to put one or all of them and his children away. He doesn't have to stop sleeping with them. They are his wives. The marriages are recognized by God. If the early church didn't require the putting away of wives, why would the church today? Has there been an addition to the Bible since the Apostles day that would change how we should handle the situation? No.

In my last post I tried to give perspective on the issue with the few pieces of information about modern day and history of polygamy. I included the commentaries to show that I'm not giving some unheard of interpretation of scripture. The Bible is the most important thing in my life. Through it and the Holy Spirit I live my life in Christ. I believe every single word in that Book. I can handle being accussed of wresting the Bible to fit my own private ideas. That doesn't bother me too much. I am sad that it's so clear to me yet supposed brothers and sisters insinuate that I am not fit to be among them. Of course, it's all insinuation, not direct communication, so it can easily be denied.
I'm more sad that the blessing of one man one woman marriage seems to be such a sacred cow that some would directly disobey a clear command of Jesus for man not to put asunder what God has joined in order to keep a commandment of men.

You mentioned the Mormons that take underaged girls as wives. They are criminals and child-rapists, and if I was King or (Queen) I would put those who have underaged girls as wives and were having sex with them, to death for their crimes.

I remember a year or so ago when the authorities raided a Mormon "compound" and ripped the small children from their mothers and kept them with children's services for days or weeks, I don't remember. I cried because of the pain of the children and their mothers. Children's services is full of satanists and predators. Polygamy is illegal in this country but for the most part the authorities leave them alone because what's the solution? Stealing peoples children? That is menstealing and it is evil. Children are the property of their parents, not the state. God forbid that we would follow that path just so that we can remain comfortable in our happy little lives and not have to be disturbed by the presence of something strange to us. That is the opposite of Love. That is the willing destruction of the lives of people for whom Christ died. That's Satan's job, not ours. Our lives are not to be centered around rules, but centered in Christ's love for the lost and for His church.

I honestly see some Pharisees on this forum. Lately, legalism has become predominant, there remains little, if any, grace. Insinuations, dishonesty, unrighteous judgements, maliciousness. That's death, not life. If it continues this way you won't have to try to get me banned (disfellowshipped, what a joke!) I'll leave of my own accord. There would be nothing to keep me here.

Last edited by greenbear; 07-26-2009 at 04:55 AM.
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  #92  
Old 07-26-2009, 08:22 AM
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PaulB PaulB is offline
 
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Default Some interesting points!

Below are a few helpful links that go quite in depth concerning just about all of the issues raised on this thread. I will state before hand that they arenít all KJB only sites but for those of us who are really seeking to know the truth on this issue. All you have to do is study the arguments presented and check them out (or even replace the passages that are quoted) with your own pure Bible. I may be going a little contrary to the grain of what some people have settled for on this matter, but believe me I am not pushing a thoughtless view, but attempting to raise constructive thought on a very serious subject.

It is like I said before and this is my driving conviction, that I do not want to play a part in any way, shape or form on something that is contrary to what has been ordained by God in Scripture. But what I do want to do is play every part in that which God has ordained in Scripture (if it is re-marriage then I want my conscience free Scripturally) but if it is contrary to Scripture then I also wish to have a free conscience when opposing it. I realise that these are sensitive issues and I am not trying to shoot people down or win an argument, my only aim is interact with many on something that is very important.

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceL...osition_Paper/

http://www.cadz.net/ifthoumarry.html
http://www.cadz.net/marryburn.html

http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/divorce2.html
http://www.balaams-ass.com/journal/housechu/divorce.htm

Ps, I have no affiliation with any of these ministries, neither am I promoting them Ė all I am doing is presenting the good points that they are raising rather than writing a post that would take up a forum page by itself.

I sincerely hope and pray that the points raised produce healthy thinking and important fruitful discussion. At least we will all know more about the subject concerned when we have finished!


God bless

PaulB
  #93  
Old 07-26-2009, 08:50 AM
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PaulB PaulB is offline
 
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Default Hi Pam

Quote:
Originally Posted by custer View Post
Hello PaulB!

I hope you don't mind; I just quoted the pieces of your post that I am responding to directly...

First of all, I must say that Jesus' words are not pure "NT grace" as the New Testament was not fully in effect yet (Hebrews 9:16-17.) I think Jesus always dealt with people according to the law. And as Paul is OUR apostle, his writing (and any writing that does not oppose his) should be "the final rule on all things."
Firstly, it is nice to interact with you and secondly, no I don't mind you partially quoting me!

I do have to say though that every word of our Lord Jesus Christ is the final revelation of God to us (as He is THE WORD in flesh). Paul is not an authority above Jesus, he was a chosen instrument who related who Christ is and what He said but to the gentile churches that he established.

How is it possible to claim that Jesus always dealt with OT law when He was clearly proclaiming what He said as the very authority that was to stand after the law (e.g. Mt.5:31 "It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:32 But I say unto you,
Paul was an apostle of our Lord Jesus Christ - he was not a seperate revelation from Him. So when we are looking at the given subject of this thread, Paul in 1 Cor.7 is not acting independently from the revelation of NT grace that he had recieved but in accordance with it.

God bless

PaulB
  #94  
Old 07-26-2009, 10:13 AM
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George George is offline
 
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Default Re: "Acceptable/Unacceptable Reasons for Divorce"

greenbear said:
Quote:
"I honestly see some Pharisees on this forum. Lately, legalism has become predominant, there remains little, if any, grace. Insinuations, dishonesty, unrighteous judgements, maliciousness. That's death, not life. If it continues this way you won't have to try to get me banned (disfellowshipped, what a joke!) I'll leave of my own accord. There would be nothing to keep me here."
Aloha sister Jennifer,

I urge you to not let some of these new-comers get you down. I have watched this thread (and others) and have withheld commenting, because I don't appreciate being laughed at by a woman, but I can no longer forebear.

Your attempts to discuss or "dialogue" with some of these people is futile because they have little or no interest to know the truth. It's "questions", "Questions" - always more "QUESTIONS"! And then, after you answer their questions, it's: "well - what if"; "couldn't it possibly be"; or "I see it this way"; ad nauseam. Lately, with the notable exception of brother Presswood (who has had some excellent edifying comments) we have had very little Scripturally edifying comments and plenty of "private opinion", "speculation", "supposition", and "conjecture".

I refuse to "engage" these people - there is no profit in spending all of our time engaged in: "foolish and unlearned QUESTIONS"!
Quote:
2 Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions AVOID, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Titus 3:9
But AVOID foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
I believe that you have honestly and sincerely tried to answer (with both Scripture and historical facts) the foolish question that was posed (about the Muslim man with 7 wives) - only to be met with the typical Humanist response. I urge you - DO NOT let these people DRIVE YOU AWAY from this Forum! Both you and sister Jassy have been a "breath of fresh air" to the AV1611 Bible Forums (Imagine: two Western Christian women who are intelligent, articulate, and knowledgeable; but who also have spiritual discernment and understanding; and yet still possess "a meek an quiet spirit" [1Peter 3:4] - I didn't think it was possible! )

I am sure that there are many others on this Forum that feel the same way as I do, but have held their "peace", because they do not want this Forum to end over a division over a foolish question to begin with.

I know that I have said this before, but it still is true - I have been a Christian for nearly 51 years now, and have been a King James Bible believer for 41 of those years (though I never used any other "bible"). I have both seen and heard some of the most outrageous things that "Christians" have done during those years, and have learned that there is only one way to deal with "Christian" doubters, gnatstrainers, questioners and skeptics - AVOID THEM! There is NO "edification" and there is NO "profit".

Quote:
Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
I would not have posted these comments, except for the fact that you have indicated that you might depart from the AV1611 Bible Forums over these futile exchanges. This Forum needs and appreciates your participation - be patient, I've been a member of the AV1611 Forums for nearly a year and a half, and I have felt the way you feel many times. There is no other place on the net (that I know of) where you can meet, and fellowship, and learn, like this Forum; if you or sister Jassy ever leave (over the conduct on this Forum of other "Christians") it would be a genuine loss to the entire Forum.

Humanism, Casuistry, and Sophism cannot be "changed" through discussion, dialogue, or debate. It is an exercise in "futility" to try!
Quote:
2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Last edited by George; 07-26-2009 at 10:39 AM.
  #95  
Old 07-26-2009, 01:46 PM
custer custer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulB View Post
Firstly, it is nice to interact with you and secondly, no I don't mind you partially quoting me!

I do have to say though that every word of our Lord Jesus Christ is the final revelation of God to us (as He is THE WORD in flesh). Paul is not an authority above Jesus, he was a chosen instrument who related who Christ is and what He said but to the gentile churches that he established.

How is it possible to claim that Jesus always dealt with OT law when He was clearly proclaiming what He said as the very authority that was to stand after the law (e.g. Mt.5:31 "It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:32 But I say unto you,
Paul was an apostle of our Lord Jesus Christ - he was not a seperate revelation from Him. So when we are looking at the given subject of this thread, Paul in 1 Cor.7 is not acting independently from the revelation of NT grace that he had recieved but in accordance with it.

God bless

PaulB
Hey!

As far as Jesus and Paul...Paul is NOT speaking "in accordance with" Jesus! Paul directly contradicts what Jesus said - comparing I Corinthians 7:10-11 and 27-28 with Matthew 19:9. This apparent contradiction can only be explained by "rightly dividing the word of truth." (II Tim. 2:15) Jesus deals with Jews that are under the law, kingdom and millenial doctrine, and such - he's not talking to "church age" Christians. Paul DOES speak directly TO US - see Romans 11:13 and 15:16; Gal. 2:2 and 2:8; Col. 1:21-29; I Tim.2:7; II Tim. 1:11...(Gentiles being defined as "Uncircumcision" in Eph.2:11)

Paul also contradicts Jesus concerning salvation: When asked how to get eternal life, Jesus told the man in Matthew 19:16-17 that he should "keep the commandments;" Paul says in Galatians 3:21, "...if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." And again, in Titus 3:5, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,..." And Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Jesus' statement ("keep the commandments") has WORKS necessary for salvation AS OPPOSED TO PAUL who makes it clear that our salvation does NOT involve works! (Works AFTER salvation/because of salvation are a different story!)

All this to say that there's just no getting around the fact that Paul says that if a man marries AFTER HE IS LOOSED (divorced,) HE HAS NOT SINNED (I Cor. 7:27-28!) What else can we do with that passage? Somebody told me that Paul was saying we should be more concerned with the furtherance of the gospel (or something to that effect,) BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT THE BIBLE PLAINLY SAYS!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com
  #96  
Old 07-26-2009, 01:51 PM
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greenbear greenbear is offline
 
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Aloha, brother George.

On another post you once told me that it took you years to come to understand sophist and humanist arguments and you hoped it wouldn't take that long for me. I've certainly had a few lessons in it, lately. I'm not sure what my motivation is in getting involved and in continuing in these fruitless debates, whether it be pride, caring what others think of me, or not understanding that the ability to discern the truth about something is in large part a matter of the state of the heart, not the mind. Still, it helps if a person is able to think their way out of a brown paper bag. Satan's kingdom has really done a number on westerner's hearts, and their ability to think. If somebody like that disagrees with me, I begin to think I must really be on to something. If someone like my husband, you, Brandon or Tony, and some others on the forum, have a different take on something then I'm going to take a pretty close look at why I think what I think. Discernment builds upon itself. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. Matthew 25:29 Now some may say I am taking this verse out of it's context. I say it is a principle that does apply to receiving spiritual understanding from the Lord, among other things.

Thank you for your encouraging words about me and Jassy. I recognized the Spirit that is in her immediately and as you may know, she has become a dear friend in the Lord. I recognize the same in Renee and Jaebyrd. Neither posts a lot but when they do they speak the truth in love.

I'll try to Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. Proverbs 26:4 and try to avoid many other various faults I may have. Participating on a forum is a sure fire way to come to recognize your faults! They are right there in black and white and it usually doesn't go away, either! I've looked at other "christian" forums on the net as well and I think I can safely say there is not one other forum that I could participate in. Not one.

May God bless you brother,

Jennifer

Last edited by greenbear; 07-26-2009 at 02:15 PM.
  #97  
Old 07-26-2009, 02:51 PM
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Sis Jen,

Your post #91 here was so eloquent, so to-the-point, and so inspired, that I didn't even feel a need to give my input. I know, from firsthand experience, how different the West looks at things. I have seen "other worlds" and other cultures, both Christian and not, and I can definitely say, from my own knowledge, that not all have the Westernized view of Christianity. It has plagued me for a long while, that the Western Christians are so focused on their own culture, that they fail to see that the Lord did not come for Americans ONLY. He came - and DIED FOR - the sins of ALL the world.

It has pained me that a church will send an evangelistic missionary over to Africa or Asia or wherever and think that their "good deed" is done and that they can open the minds of the people to the truth. Oftentimes what happens first is offensive to the people there, for the reason that Westernized Christians lack understanding and wisdom. This is why I have always felt that NATIVE evangelists, who understand the language, culture and people, are the very BEST evangelists. Simply provide them with the Bibles and literature they need! When we try to enforce our own thinking and culture upon others (think politics also!), it results in many hurt feelings, smashed toes, and misunderstandings.

I won't even bother to go into my own experiences in detail, for I feel that would be unprofitable here. Suffice it to say that I have lived in other parts of the world and I have seen and experienced what the everyday American will probably never see or experience. There are both positives and negatives in that.

I've also followed the leading of the Holy Spirit to befriend and witness to many people from other countries, religions, and cultures. In order to gain their respect, I have to respect them first. The minute you put them down for their beliefs, is the minute they stop listening to you and your window of opportunity to witness is CLOSED.

I do the majority of my witnessing on the internet - to Arab Muslims, to Chinese Buddhists, to Indian Hindus, etc. I have learned how to befriend them first, to gain their trust and understanding. This is not done in a few hours. This is not done in a few days. This is not done in a few weeks. This may not even be done in a few months!! With some, it has taken years of knowing them to be able to bring them the truth. God had to give me a lot of patience to do this. But, remember, I'm disabled, I don't go out much, and time is the gift that has been given to me.

Remember Paul saying:
1 Corinthians 9:19 - For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant to all, that I might gain the more.
20- And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 - To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 - To the weak because I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 - And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.


So, I guess it amazes me that people would be so fast to pass judgment and shove aside those who don't share their particular "brand" of Christianity or their own WORLD UNDERSTANDING. One day there will be, I believe, an ecumenical religion thrust upon the world. It will be especially tragic when weak Christians fall for it and embrace it. It will be Satan's counterfeit religion and it will become enforced. Those without wisdom will be LOST for eternity.

I follow Paul and his teaching about GRACE. I also follow Paul in BECOMING whatever I wish to WIN for Christ!! Don't misunderstand, I do not lose myself in the process. This is an equation of GAIN, not LOSS, according to Paul.

Blessings to you sister,
Jassy
  #98  
Old 07-26-2009, 08:41 PM
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Default CORRECTION of my previous post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jassy View Post
So, I guess it amazes me that people would be so fast to pass judgment and shove aside those who don't share their particular "brand" of Christianity or their own WORLD UNDERSTANDING. One day there will be, I believe, an ecumenical religion thrust upon the world. It will be especially tragic when weak Christians fall for it and embrace it. It will be Satan's counterfeit religion and it will become enforced. Those without wisdom will be LOST for eternity.
Well, here I am quoting myself. Sis Jennifer graciously pointed out my error, in private, in that paragraph. I encouraged her to post it here and correct me in public! She refused to do so! So here I am correcting myself and thanking sis Jen for being so kindhearted.

So, Jennifer said: "Christians can't be lost, and wisdom is not what saves Christians... belief in Christ does."

And she is absolutely correct. I thanked her for pointing out my error and I couldn't believe that I posted that kind of huge error!! WHAT WAS I THINKING?!

After thanking Jen, she then said "You are one easy correctee. Wow"

I feel very blessed by her friendship in Christ. Iron sharpens iron and that's the way it ought to be!

Jassy
  #99  
Old 07-27-2009, 05:02 AM
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Default Pam

Quote:
Originally Posted by custer View Post
Hey!

As far as Jesus and Paul...Paul is NOT speaking "in accordance with" Jesus! Paul directly contradicts what Jesus said - comparing I Corinthians 7:10-11 and 27-28 with Matthew 19:9. This apparent contradiction can only be explained by "rightly dividing the word of truth." (II Tim. 2:15) Jesus deals with Jews that are under the law, kingdom and millenial doctrine, and such - he's not talking to "church age" Christians. Paul DOES speak directly TO US - see Romans 11:13 and 15:16; Gal. 2:2 and 2:8; Col. 1:21-29; I Tim.2:7; II Tim. 1:11...(Gentiles being defined as "Uncircumcision" in Eph.2:11)

Paul also contradicts Jesus concerning salvation: When asked how to get eternal life, Jesus told the man in Matthew 19:16-17 that he should "keep the commandments;" Paul says in Galatians 3:21, "...if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." And again, in Titus 3:5, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,..." And Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Jesus' statement ("keep the commandments") has WORKS necessary for salvation AS OPPOSED TO PAUL who makes it clear that our salvation does NOT involve works! (Works AFTER salvation/because of salvation are a different story!)

All this to say that there's just no getting around the fact that Paul says that if a man marries AFTER HE IS LOOSED (divorced,) HE HAS NOT SINNED (I Cor. 7:27-28!) What else can we do with that passage? Somebody told me that Paul was saying we should be more concerned with the furtherance of the gospel (or something to that effect,) BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT THE BIBLE PLAINLY SAYS!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com
Hi Pam! I donít think that we are going to agree on anything in Scripture in the light of what you have just presented to me, as your rule of hermeneutics is like a Semitic form of preterism. When you start applying a rule of interpretation like that then thatís when you are forced into a position where you have to start pitching Paulís teachings against those of His own Lord and Saviour. Iím sorry but that is just plain old heresy and not a right division of the word!

PaulB
  #100  
Old 07-27-2009, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulB View Post
Hi Pam! I donít think that we are going to agree on anything in Scripture in the light of what you have just presented to me, as your rule of hermeneutics is like a Semitic form of preterism. When you start applying a rule of interpretation like that then thatís when you are forced into a position where you have to start pitching Paulís teachings against those of His own Lord and Saviour. Iím sorry but that is just plain old heresy and not a right division of the word!

PaulB
Well, PaulB, thank you very much for being kind in your answer to me; that is what makes these forum discussions possible even through disagreement! But, yeah, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree!

I read through the links that you had posted with various teaching on this topic...some of them varied from each other. What is your position? I mean, what is Paul saying/teaching in I Cor. 7:27-28, if he is not condoning remarriage after divorce? Please forgive me if you've posted your position already and I've missed it!

Thanks again!
Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com
 

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