Doctrine Discussion about matters of the faith.

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-28-2008, 10:35 AM
beloved57
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default No man has freewill to come to Jesus

The untruth of today is that man has a freewill to choose christ, but Jesus himself says mans will is not free..

Jn 6:

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

To come means to believe in Him for salvation.

Jesus says no man can or has the ability to believe in me, only if the father grants them that privilege..

paul says the same thing about having been given the right to believe in christ..


phil 1:

29For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

To some Jesus says they cannot believe..

Jn 12:

37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software
  #2  
Old 03-28-2008, 11:16 AM
jerry
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Why not rip more verses out of context and set the Bible against itself. The Bible makes it very clear that God gives us a choice - and most choose to reject Him and His Word, His salvation, etc.

Deuteronomy 1:25-26 And they took of the fruit of the land in their hands, and brought it down unto us, and brought us word again, and said, It is a good land which the LORD our God doth give us. Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:

Deuteronomy 1:42-43 And the LORD said unto me, Say unto them, Go not up, neither fight; for I am not among you; lest ye be smitten before your enemies. So I spake unto you; and ye would not hear, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD, and went presumptuously up into the hill.

Deuteronomy 8:20 As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.

Proverbs 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

Isaiah 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Jeremiah 29:19 Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

John 5:39-40 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

There are other passages too.
  #3  
Old 03-29-2008, 08:42 AM
Diligent's Avatar
Diligent Diligent is offline
Forum Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oklahoma, USA.
Posts: 641
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry View Post
Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
This verse in particular demolishes the system of Calvinism. In one verse we have God's will -- "how often would I have gathered" -- contrasted with man's will -- "ye would not" -- proving once and for all that God does allow man's will to contravene his own will on matters like these. So much for irresistible grace! The truth is that it is in fact God's will that man has a freedom of choice to obey or disobey.
  #4  
Old 03-29-2008, 09:00 AM
beloved57
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

None of those references says man has a freewill.. You cannot make scriptures contradict the saviour says no man can come to me! That does away with freewill, sorry..

man cannot believe unless God grants it..

jn 12:

39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

Last edited by beloved57; 03-29-2008 at 09:03 AM.
  #5  
Old 03-29-2008, 09:51 AM
Revangelist
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jesus on many occasions has used a paradox to explain a truth. To say you can't believe unless God grants it is correct, but not as extremely as you are explaining it. Jesus said in John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
But people "do things" all the time.

Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

To say everything we do is pre-determined isn't Biblically correct. What is more correct is God knows in advance what we will do, according to foreknowledge. So, the following verse tempers the apparent paradox. Calvin didn't see it going by his teachings.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

John 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.


Because of the hardness of their hearts they could not believe. It was a lack of ability because of how stubborn they were, not because God wouldn't allow it. Just like when God said He would harden Pharaoh's heart, he did it with conviction.
  #6  
Old 03-29-2008, 10:27 AM
beloved57
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Jesus on many occasions has used a paradox to explain a truth. To say you can't believe unless God grants it is correct, but not as extremely as you are explaining it.
He means what he says, why do you disagree with Jesus sir and change what he says ?

The bible says man cannot come to Jesus , that eliminates freewill..

Jn 6:

44

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


It takes an inward power from the Holy Spirit, so that means one has to be first born again from above before they can come to Jesus..

For you to harp on freewill is against christ teachings sir..dont run from the truth of jesus bow to it ..
  #7  
Old 03-29-2008, 10:54 AM
jerry
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

It is not Jesus' teachings we have a problem with - it is yours. You keep ripping verses out of context. This verse goes with the one you just quoted:

John 12:32-33 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

The Holy Spirit will draw all men unto Jesus because Jesus has already died.
  #8  
Old 03-29-2008, 11:00 AM
beloved57
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
It is not Jesus' teachings we have a problem with -
It is Jesus teaching you have a problem with..

a man does not have a freewill..if he had a freewill why would he need to be drawn ? Why not come on his own freewill ? duh..
  #9  
Old 03-29-2008, 11:02 AM
beloved57
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
The Holy Spirit will draw all men unto Jesus because Jesus has already died.
all types and races of men are drawn by the power of his death, are you saying that all those being drawn by the power of the cross are not saved by it ?
  #10  
Old 03-29-2008, 11:29 AM
jerry
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You tell me - the passage quite clearly states God will draw all men unto Him through Christ's death. If you reject that, you are rejecting God's Word itself. The only thing debatable here is HOW He is drawing people to Himself.

No freewill - then you are a robot who has no mind of his own; therefore your non-freewill thoughts are worthless in reasoning out Biblical issues. Better to stick with the Bible than your faulty understanding!

No freewill - hm, what about this:

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

And this:

Isaiah 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

And this:

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Another offer to everyone:

Isaiah 55:6-7 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

And another one:

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Oh no, the Holy Spirit is convicting the WORLD of sin and their need for the Saviour - but no one has a free will to respond to the Gospel (according to you):

John 16:7-14 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:21 PM.

Powered by vBulletin®, Copyright vBulletin Solutions Inc.

Website © AV1611.Com.
Posts represent only the opinions of users of this forum and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the webmaster.

Software for Believing Bible Study

 
Contact Us AV1611.Com