Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
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  #11  
Old 07-13-2009, 12:44 PM
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Will Kinney Will Kinney is offline
 
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Hi brother Paul. Thank you for the comments. Yes, I totally agree about Daniel Wallace and company's NET version. It is an ongoing train wreck in action. They feel free to alter any text at any time and keep digging around in ancient scrap piles hoping they will come up with new and exciting find. Affectionately known to his most intimate friends as Dumpster Diver Daniel ;-)

God bless,

Will K
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  #12  
Old 07-14-2009, 03:55 PM
boaz212 boaz212 is offline
 
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Thanks Will again for your article. I have been going through the book of Acts and this study definitely helped. I believe in the eternal sonship of Christ. I just never got to study and understand the phrase Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee is referring to the resurrection of Christ. I have a couple of questions I like to ask for your help.

1). What's the definition for the word begotten used in Ac 13:33 and Ps 2:7?
2). Can you explain Hbr 1:5 ¶ For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Is the "begotten thee" always referring to the resurrection of Christ? And what does it mean when God says I will be to him a Father...? Is He referring to Rom 1:4?

Thanks for your help. This is a very important doctrine. I need to make sure I have the proper understanding and the scriptures to back it up.

Tim
  #13  
Old 07-14-2009, 04:30 PM
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Default This day have I begotten thee

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Originally Posted by boaz212 View Post
Thanks Will again for your article. I have been going through the book of Acts and this study definitely helped. I believe in the eternal sonship of Christ. I just never got to study and understand the phrase Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee is referring to the resurrection of Christ. I have a couple of questions I like to ask for your help.

1). What's the definition for the word begotten used in Ac 13:33 and Ps 2:7?
2). Can you explain Hbr 1:5 ¶ For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Is the "begotten thee" always referring to the resurrection of Christ? And what does it mean when God says I will be to him a Father...? Is He referring to Rom 1:4?

Thanks for your help. This is a very important doctrine. I need to make sure I have the proper understanding and the scriptures to back it up.

Tim
Hi Tim. Thanks for writing. I think if you go back and look at John Gill's comments on Psalm 2:7 that will help. I think "begotten" in the context of Acts 13:33 is when God gave Him life. Christ was truly dead. Just like God begets us. "...which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." 1 Peter 1:3.

God gave Him life and He became the first-begotten from the dead - See Rev. 1:5.

As for Hebrews 1:5 I think it refers to His resurrection as predicted in Psalm 2:7. Many hold this view.

There is a lot of dispute about the eternal Sonship of Christ. Not all Christians agree on this doctrine at all. But I think this is what the Scriptures teach. Here is an article I wrote on it. I do not think it is a "break it" doctrine one way or the other, as long as you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is Jehovah God Himself. I completely believe in the full, everlasting Godhead of Jesus Christ. If a person does not believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God, then I could not fellowship with him.

Here is the article and some pretty impressive church confessions from times past. Hope this helps some.

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/begotnSon.html

Accepted in the Beloved,

Will Kinney
  #14  
Old 07-14-2009, 06:19 PM
boaz212 boaz212 is offline
 
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Hope this helps some.
Hi Will, thanks for your quick reply. Some is quite an understatement.
It's all coming together nicely for me. I am just going to go through the verses again and read your article a few more times. God bless, you have been a big blessing to me. Take care.
Tim
  #15  
Old 07-14-2009, 09:43 PM
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Default Some more great confessions on the only begotten Son of God

Hi Tim and others who may be interested in the doctrine of the eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ.

NICENE CREED 325 A.D. We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, THE ONLY-BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, BEGOTTEN OF HIS FATHER BEFORE ALL WORLD, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, BEGOTTEN, NOT MADE, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made;

CHALCEDON CREED 451 A.D. Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER BEFORE THE AGES.

ATHANASIA CREED 500 A.D. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, NOT MADE NOR CREATED BUT BEGOTTEN. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten but proceeding. And in this Trinity there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less, but the whole three Persons are coeternal together and coequal.

The right faith therefore is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man. He is God of the substance of the Father, BEGTOTTEN BEFORE THE WORLDS, and He is man of the substance of His mother born in the world; perfect God, perfect man subsisting of a reasoning soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood.

The BELGIC CONFESSION 1561 We believe that Jesus Christ, according to his divine nature, is the only Son of God-- ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN, NOT MADE NOR CREATED, for then he would be a creature. He is one in essence with the Father; coeternal; the exact image of the person of the Father.

The 39 ARTICLES OF RELIGION 1571 Article II The Son, which is the Word of the Father, BEGOTTEN FROM EVERLASTING OF THE FATHER, the very and eternal God, and of one substance with the Father.

WESTMINSTER CONFESSION 1646 In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; THE SON IS ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.

LONDON BAPTIST CONFESSION 1689 In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided: the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; THE SON IS ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son.

Will K
  #16  
Old 07-17-2009, 10:38 PM
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Will, forgive me if I am wrong. I noticed fssl on fff said something about eternally begotten or something.

Do you believe that "this day" refers to a specific day in time, or some eternal decree?
  #17  
Old 07-18-2009, 03:34 AM
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Default This day have I begotten thee

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Will, forgive me if I am wrong. I noticed fssl on fff said something about eternally begotten or something.

Do you believe that "this day" refers to a specific day in time, or some eternal decree?
Hi Luke. This is a good question. Like I said earlier, I do not believe the eternal Sonship is a "deal breaker" as long as one believes that the Lord Jesus Christ is JEHOVAH God. He is the God-man, with two natures. His deity took on humanity at the incarnation.

I think the Baptist commentator John Gill explained the various uses of the phrases "begotten" and "only begotten Son" quite well. However when it comes to the specific phrase used when God says: "This DAY have I begotten thee" I think this refers specifically to the very real DAY when God gave the Son's dead body life again at the resurrection as recorded in Acts 13:33, and as most Christians used to understand Psalms 2:7.

Christ then became "the first begotten from the dead" Rev. 1:5 and "the firstborn from the dead" Colossians 1:18.

This has been the long held traditional view. It is not some new kind of doctrine. However there are some who disagree with the doctrine of the eternal Sonship of the second Person of the Trinity; yet I believe they are Christians too.

I hope that answers your question. If not, then please clarify.

Thanks,

Will K
  #18  
Old 07-18-2009, 03:43 AM
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Default Another present day Baptist on Acts 13:33

You may have already seen this, Luke, but here is another present day Baptist who is pretty well know who see it this way too.

Dr. Douglas Stauffer, a Baptist pastor and preacher, has written a book called One Book Stands Alone, which is a good defense of the King James Bible. Regarding Acts 13:33 and its meaning, Mr. Stauffer notes on pages 24-25: KJB Acts 13:33 "God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE."

"When the Father said this to the Son, it was not at His birth. It was at His resurrection. He became the "first BEGOTTEN of the dead" Rev.1:5. God did not become the Lord's Father when He was born or Mary or at the resurrection. He is from everlasting, with no beginning. The Son always was...but not so in the NIV."

NIV Acts 13:33 "he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "You are my Son; TODAY I HAVE BECOME YOUR FATHER."

"The Lord Jesus Christ did not become THE SON of God at any time during His earthly life or ministry. (Psalm 2:12) The Lord Jesus Christ (God the Son) can be found throughout the Old Testament. Numerous appearances are revealed prior to His being born of Mary. A great passage in proof of this truth is located in the book of Daniel when Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego are thrown into the fiery furnace. Notice who else shows up... the ETERNAL Son of God." (Dr. Douglas Stauffer)

Will K
  #19  
Old 07-18-2009, 02:43 PM
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Thanks. I just wondered if you went down that line that some reformed do, and end up with a begotten God and an unbegotten God and a whole lotta confusion by substituting "this day" for eternity.
  #20  
Old 07-18-2009, 03:46 PM
boaz212 boaz212 is offline
 
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Hi Will, quick question for you. Why do many new versions say:
He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” Dan 3:25 (NIV)
Where does that reading come from? Thanks.
Tim
 

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