Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
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Old 05-19-2008, 04:17 PM
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Diligent Diligent is offline
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Default Psalm 12:7 - the Promise of Preservation

Regarding Psalms 12:6,7
Psalms 12:6-7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by freesundayschoollessons View Post
Actually, that passage is not talking about the preservation of Scripture. It is talking about the preservation of the "poor."
FSSL claims that the words "Thou shalt keep them" refer to the poor in verse five:
Psalms 12:5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

FSSL's claim is clearly incorrect simply from the grammar of the passage, but more obvious is that the "poor" of David's time were not preserved for ever.

FSSL later claims the word "from" would have to mean that the words began in David's generation. That is as incorrect as assuming that "the poor" began in that generation to the exclusion of all prior generations.

The book Thou Shalt Keep Them (ISBN 0974381705, chapter 1) offers a thorough examination of the Hebrew text proving that the modern versions that translate this passage so as to remove the promise of preservation are simply wrong. Those who have an interest in such things should read that book.

If we are to accept the incorrect reading of verse seven to make it refer to the poor instead of God's words, we must do the same in Psalm 119:110,111:
Psalms 119:110-111 The wicked have laid a snare for me: yet I erred not from thy precepts. Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for they are the rejoicing of my heart.
If we accept FSSL's rules of grammar in this case, we must assume David was rejoicing at the wicked, instead of God's testimonies. (Note that this verse also teaches the preservation of God's word in that they are an heritage "for ever." Just as Psalm 12:7 says they will be preserved "for ever." A little "Scripture with Scripture" by the simplest of KJV believers will yield mountains more understanding than all the scholarly works of unbelieving "original language" scholars.)

The meaning of Psalm 12 is perfectly plain. The chapter is a contrast between David's love of God's words and the vanity of men's words. Incorrectly reading verse 7 to refer to a promise to preserve the poor forever ruins the praise of God's promises David is offering. It also leaves us with the strange, untenable position that God is promising the preservation of the poor in perpetuity -- a tenet not to be found elsewhere in Scripture. (And I looked -- among all of the commentaries I have that agree with FSSL's position, none of them offer a cross-reference teaching a similar tenet.) It also contradicts the very first verse, where David states that "for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men." If we are to accept the reading FSSL offers, we must conclude that the "godly man" and "faithful" can not also be "poor" and that, oddly, the poor are therefore ungodly, faithless, and will be preserved forever.
  #2  
Old 05-19-2008, 04:19 PM
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Since this topic comes up a lot, I'm making it "sticky" for a while.
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Old 05-19-2008, 04:26 PM
freesundayschoollessons
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Excellent thread. I will "sit back" and lurk for a while. I landed 6 websites last week and need to start some and finish others. I will let you all discuss this without my interference. If you want me to deal with something, I will try, as time (and my wife) permits. See Diligent, I don't beat her
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Old 05-19-2008, 05:47 PM
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Thanks, Diligent, for that information!
Modern version advocates do criticize the KJB to be "misleading" and they believe the "them" refers to people rather than to God's "words". But comparing Scripture with Scripture (1 Cor. 2:13), to make "them" refer to God's "words" (Psalm 12:6,7) shows no contradiction whatsoever. In fact, Scripture passages such as Matthew 24:35 and 1 Peter 1:23 back this up.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:23 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
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Default complementary scriptures to Psalm 12:6-7

Hi Folks,

Psalm 12:6-7
The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tried in a furnace of earth,
purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

It is helpful to simply show some of the complementary verses.
The Bible is consistent -- the Word of our God stands forever.

Psalm 119:89.
Forever, O LORD,
thy word is settled in heaven.

Psalm 119:140
Thy word is very pure:
therefore thy servant loveth it.

Psalm 138:2
I will worship toward thy holy temple,
and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth:
for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Psalms 18:31
As for God, his way is perfect:
the word of the LORD is tried:
he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.
For who is God save the LORD?
or who is a rock save our God?

Psalm 78 5-7
For he established a testimony in Jacob,
and appointed a law in Israel,
which he commanded our fathers,
that they should make them known to their children:
That the generation to come might know them,
even the children which should be born;
who should arise and declare them to their children:
That they might set their hope in God,
and not forget the works of God,
but keep his commandments:

Proverbs 30:5
Every word of God is pure:
he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withereth,
the flower fadeth:
but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Isaiah 59:21
As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD;
My spirit that is upon thee,
and my words which I have put in thy mouth,
shall not depart out of thy mouth,
nor out of the mouth of thy seed,
nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed,
saith the LORD,
from henceforth and for ever.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away,
but my words shall not pass away. (also Luke 12:33)

John 10:35
If he called them gods,
unto whom the word of God came,
and the scripture cannot be broken;

1Peter 1:23-25
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,
by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass
The word of the Lord endureth for ever

Shalom,
Steven
  #6  
Old 05-21-2008, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
the scripture cannot be broken;
Amen.

"For what saith the scripture?" (Romans 4:3a).
  #7  
Old 08-31-2008, 04:19 PM
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Good points, Brandon. Thanks.

Will K
  #8  
Old 09-02-2008, 04:15 AM
Scott Simons
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Default Pure Word

It is ridiculous to think anything other that the preservation was talking about anything other than the pure words of God. Why the credence to such nonsense?
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Old 09-02-2008, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diligent View Post

The meaning of Psalm 12 is perfectly plain.
It is to me also.

“For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven” (Psalm 119:89).

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away” (Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33).

“The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever” (Isaiah 40:8).

How can we ever proclaim and teach the true meaning of Scripture without first believing God has preserved every Word?
  #10  
Old 10-30-2008, 01:14 AM
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Just_A_Thought Just_A_Thought is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
It is to me also.

“For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven” (Psalm 119:89).

Exactly, God's perfect word is settled in HEAVEN. No where does it teach that it is one earth.

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away” (Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33).

Yes, again if it were on earth then it would be burnt up when God destroys the earth. It will not be! It is settled in Heaven.

“The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever” (Isaiah 40:8).

It was before the foundations of the earth and will be here after it is destroyed.

How can we ever proclaim and teach the true meaning of Scripture without first believing God has preserved every Word?
God DID preserve His word but man has taken it out of context. God's words are true words but if I translate it or copie it I can mess it up. It may not be done on purpose but I am far from perfect! (Maybe this is the only thing you wil agree with me on) I can mess it up while meaning well.

Last edited by Just_A_Thought; 10-30-2008 at 01:33 AM.
 

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