[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by stephanos

I don't think the theory that Christ was tormented in Hell to be meaty truth one iota. I find it to be pure conjecture.

Well, indeed speculation is a Bible believing trait, but not without sufficient scripture that points to a likely conclusion, and the scripture already posted is sufficient.

I'd still like to see a good scriptural refutation from opponents of this teaching, exactly why Christ went to "hell" (the place where the damned go) and what He achieved there if not being made an offering for sin?

I guess I'm in the middle on this one.
As in any good discussion, I think everyone has made some good points, I would be interested to hear Ruckman's position on this. I have his sermon on Heaven and Hell, as well as his commentaries, but I don't recall him ever saying Christ was burned or "roasted" in the fires of Hell.

Like Jonah, Christ did indeed go to Hell.
His soul was not left there. (Acts 2:27, 31, Jonah 2:2)

I do see Christ offering himself as a sacrifice. (Heb. 10:12)
But, Personally I do not see Christ burning or suffering in Hell in the Bible.
I can certainly see and understand someone coming up with that, considering the passage in Hebrews 13:11, and I think brother Kiwi did a good job with that exposition. But I feel that his suffering ended on the cross, and I think that the phrase "without the gate," is a reference to his loss of fellowship with God on the cross, which is why he cried out, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:45-46, 2 Corinthians 5:21).

God had no pleasure in in burnt offerings. (Heb. 10:6)
Please notice: we were sanctified through the body of Christ, no burning of his soul was required. "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Heb. 10:10) Please notice, his body was not burned, but his body and blood as offered on the cross was indeed the perfect sacrifice.

"Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." (Heb. 10:8,9)

As far as his reason for being there, I think it was a time for PREACHING, not suffering. I think he went to Hell, PREACHED THE GOSPEL to millions upon millions, led captivity captive, and he now has the keys of hell on his belt. (Rev. 1:18) So even though his suffering ended on the cross, and his life was "finished," he still had plenty to do in the heart of the earth.

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and PREACHED unto the spirits in prison" (I Pet. 3:18-19)

"For for this cause was the gospel PREACHED also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (I Pet. 4:6)

It's a good discussion, and I think we can respect each other's views on this.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

...I would be interested to hear Ruckman's position on this. I have his sermon on Heaven and Hell, as well as his commentaries, but I don't recall him ever saying Christ was burned or "roasted" in the fires of Hell.

As far as his reason for being there, I think it was a time for PREACHING, not suffering.

I appreciated your answer brother, thank you.

I've just read through the pertinent passages in Ruckman's Act's, Ephesians, and Hebrews commentaries and following is what he teaches.


From Acts commentary pages 106-108:

If Jesus Christ did not go down to (and through) Hell, as in a "place of torment" (see Luke 16:28!), WHERE are your SINS? Where are the sins of the believer right now? I mean, right this minute?! WHERE ARE THEY?

Did you ever read Hebrews 9:28?

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1. Jesus Christ went "into the lower parts of the earth" before HIS resurrection. These lower parts include a Hell where a man is "TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME" (Luke 16).

2. If Jesus Christ went only to Abraham's Bosom and then returned with the captives, what did He do with the sins that were "IN HIS OWN BODY" (1 Peter 2:24)?

3. Why are we told that the second time He appears "WITHOUT SIN" when the context (of Heb 9:28) is bearing sins?

4. If Christ bore your sins in His own BODY and became SIN for you (2 Cor. 5:21) to the point of being made a curse (Gal 3:13), what did He do with your sins?

You're dealing with one of the greatest doctrines in the New Testament where it touches the salvation of the sinner: the completion of the atonement for sins.

Our sins are where they ought to be - in Hell.

We are not speaking of the time of the atonement; we are speaking of the things that followed the atonement. The scapegoat of Leviticus 16 "bore the sins" away, in type. But Jesus Christ did not merely bear them; He carried them SOMEWHERE.


From Ephesians commentary Page 272:

It was Christ's SOUL (Isa 53:10) that was the offering for SIN, and His SOUL was sorrowful "even unto death" (Matt 26:38)

--------------------------------------------

Dr Ruckman doesn't specifically mention Christ suffering in hell, but he does confirm that Christ's soul was made an offering and that while in hell He deposit our sins there. So he provided the answer to the title of this thread "Did Jesus go to hell for us?", yes He did.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

I appreciated your answer brother, thank you.

I've just read through the pertinent passages in Ruckman's Act's, Ephesians, and Hebrews commentaries and following is what he teaches.


From Acts commentary pages 106-108:

If Jesus Christ did not go down to (and through) Hell, as in a "place of torment" (see Luke 16:28!), WHERE are your SINS? Where are the sins of the believer right now? I mean, right this minute?! WHERE ARE THEY?

Did you ever read Hebrews 9:28?

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1. Jesus Christ went "into the lower parts of the earth" before HIS resurrection. These lower parts include a Hell where a man is "TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME" (Luke 16).

2. If Jesus Christ went only to Abraham's Bosom and then returned with the captives, what did He do with the sins that were "IN HIS OWN BODY" (1 Peter 2:24)?

3. Why are we told that the second time He appears "WITHOUT SIN" when the context (of Heb 9:28) is bearing sins?

4. If Christ bore your sins in His own BODY and became SIN for you (2 Cor. 5:21) to the point of being made a curse (Gal 3:13), what did He do with your sins?

You're dealing with one of the greatest doctrines in the New Testament where it touches the salvation of the sinner: the completion of the atonement for sins.

Our sins are where they ought to be - in Hell.

We are not speaking of the time of the atonement; we are speaking of the things that followed the atonement. The scapegoat of Leviticus 16 "bore the sins" away, in type. But Jesus Christ did not merely bear them; He carried them SOMEWHERE.


From Ephesians commentary Page 272:

It was Christ's SOUL (Isa 53:10) that was the offering for SIN, and His SOUL was sorrowful "even unto death" (Matt 26:38)

--------------------------------------------

Dr Ruckman doesn't specifically mention Christ suffering in hell, but he does confirm that Christ's soul was made an offering and that while in hell He deposit our sins there. So he provided the answer to the title of this thread "Did Jesus go to hell for us?", yes He did.

These are all good and valid points. I appreciate the thought and time you put into this. My question now would be, why would torment in hell be needed for Him to leave them there?

Peace and Love,
Stephen

I asked the question, " Did Jesus go the hell for us?" I have had lots of responses to that question. I knew that Jesus didn't go to hell to be burned for eternity. I just wondered if he entered into the gates of hell for a short time. I know that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God in heaven and Christ Jesus can't be destroyed for any reason. Some people responed to my question in an offensive way and I meant nothing offensive to Christ by asking that question. The bible simply said " His soul wasn't LEFT in hell "
I took it that He had to gave entered in for a short time in order for the comment ' left in hell '. I just wanted to clear up the confusion and let everyone know that I understand Jesus is Holy and can't live in hell to be burned.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by stephanos

My question now would be, why would torment in hell be needed for Him to leave them there?

The following verse could contain the answer:

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

The Bible doesn't say that Christ was "tormented", but it stands to reason that since He entered into the fires of hell with our sins then He must have suffered to some degree, or alternatively He had some sort of Divine force-field around Him, which is a bit far fetched.

In my original post I said that Christ, as our Passover Lamb, was burned in the fires of hell as an offering for us, and I still hold to that, but further elaboration on this in the scriptures I havn't been able to find...yet.

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

The Bible doesn't say that Christ was "tormented", but it stands to reason that since He entered into the fires of hell with our sins then He must have suffered to some degree, or alternatively He had some sort of Divine force-field around Him, which is a bit far fetched.

Brother Kiwi, I think you may have hit it on the head:
this is the first thing that came to my mind, from our beloved KJV,
Daniel chapter 3:

23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.

24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.

25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.

27And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.

[Diligent]

Bro. Parrish, that's an excellent point.

The other thing (for me) is the fact that the torment of hell does not cleanse anyone there of sin. People damned to hell are there forever with no hope of being cleansed of their sin.

How Christ left our sin in Hell may be a mystery, but since suffering and torment do not have anything to do with removing sin, what cause is there to assume Christ was tormented there for it?

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

Brother Kiwi, I think you may have hit it on the head:
this is the first thing that came to my mind, from our beloved KJV,
Daniel chapter 3:

23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.

24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.

25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.

27And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.

That's good brother, I also thought of Psalms 139:8, but that's an obvious reference to God's omnipresent Spirit and not Christ's soul:

Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Originally Posted by Diligent

The other thing (for me) is the fact that the torment of hell does not cleanse anyone there of sin. People damned to hell are there forever with no hope of being cleansed of their sin.

I made reference in my first post here that Christ "purged" our sin in the fires of hell, for purging in the Bible is connected with fire.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Websters definition of purge: "To cleanse or purify by separating and carrying off whatever is impure, heterogeneous,foreign or superfluous; as, to purge the body by evacuation; to purge the Augean stable. It is followed by away, of, or off. We say, to purge away or to purge off filth, and to purge a liquor of its scum."

See also Isaiah 6:7, Malachi 3:2, Matthew 3:12.

Originally Posted by Diligent

How Christ left our sin in Hell may be a mystery, but since suffering and torment do not have anything to do with removing sin, what cause is there to assume Christ was tormented there for it?

There isn't really a cause for assuming that, and the more we discuss it the less I'm thinking He was. Certainly the phrase "He tasted death for every man" warrants further thought though.

[Traditional Anglican]

Originally Posted by stephanos

This belief that Jesus suffered in Hell is a part of the theory that believes Jesus had to pay Satan a ransom for us. As in Satan had power over us until Jesus payed Satan in order to loose us from his power. I think this is just ludicrous, to put it lightly.

I'm saved by the precious blood of Jesus, not by some insane belief that Jesus payed Satan a random for me by being tormented in Hell (this theory cannot be supported by Scripture at all). Hell is a place where spirits are bound until judgment. Jesus was not bound, therefore He was there for another purpose, which has already been stated.

So what is the required payment for sin after all? What saith the Scriptures?

Romans 6:23 (KJV) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

James 1:15 (KJV) Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

and for the finale:

Romans 5:10 (KJV) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Clearly we are reconciled to God by the death of His Son, our Lord Jesus. Nowhere can I find Scripture to support the notion of our atonement being dependant upon Christ suffereing in Hell. Hell has no power over God! Never has, never will!

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Charity my Brother. Nowhere did I state ANYTHING about a ransom to Satan. There was no need to call me "insane" or "ludicrous", we are on the same "side" my Brother. If we disagree let us be civil and use charity. God Bless.