Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
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  #21  
Old 07-01-2009, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by HowlerMonkey View Post
If you consider the Wright Brothers Flyer and the Space Shuttle to be "exactly the same thing" I can see where you would think that, but there are very important differences in both cases. In the case of the Denarius vs. the Penny there are differences in size, weight and buying power as well as the position each coin held in in the money system.

I notice that in the case of the "Farthing" you didn't address any of my points, you just lumped me together with brewers.
Weight is irrelevant because pennies have been various weights. Size is irrelevant because pennies have been various sizes. Buying power is irrelevant because pennies have had varying buying power.

The reality is that a penny is exactly what Jesus handled.

As for the farthing, “And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.” (Mark 12:42).

Notice the varying value:

Lu 12:6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?

Mt 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

The word “farthing” means quarter. The reality is that a farthing is a quarter value coin! The coin in the Bible is exactly that. Therefore the word “farthing” is completely accurate and correct.
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  #22  
Old 07-01-2009, 06:22 PM
HowlerMonkey
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Originally Posted by bibleprotector View Post
Weight is irrelevant because pennies have been various weights. Size is irrelevant because pennies have been various sizes. Buying power is irrelevant because pennies have had varying buying power.

The reality is that a penny is exactly what Jesus handled.
I wish that this was the case, but the facts speak otherwise. First of all, the Denarius as a denomination ceased to exist in c. AD 306-7, while the first Penny was not struch in England until c. AD 760. That is a lapse of about 450 years. The Penny and the Denarius were issued by two different governments (in fact two different races of people) and the coins occupied different positions in their respective monetary systems. While it is true that the idea for the Penny can trace it's roots back to the Roman Denarius, it is not correct to call the Denarius and the Penny "the same thing." In the same way the idea for the US Dollar was based on the European Thaler and the Spanish Imperial Eight Real, but is is not correct to call the US Dollar either a Thaler or an Eight Real.

What the translators were doing was to use the closest contemporary coin denomination in place of the proper name for the ancient Roman coin in question. You often see the same principal in art of the period where Biblical figures are protrayed as knights in Renassiance style armor or kings in medieval style dress. In the case of the Penny this is not an outright error because the concept for the Penny was based on the Denarius (you could say that the English Penny was the great-grandson of the Roman Denarius), but it does unnecessarily confuse the issue for Bible readers not well versed in numismatic history.

The Greek word translated "Penny" in the AV is "denarion" which is simply a transliteration of the Latin "Denarius."

Quote:
Originally Posted by bibleprotector View Post
As for the farthing, “And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.” (Mark 12:42).

Notice the varying value:

Lu 12:6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?

Mt 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
This is a case where the Greek illuminates the English translation. The Greek word used in Mark 12:42 is "Kodrantes" while the Greel word used in Matthew 10:29 and Luke 12:6 is "Assarion," These are TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF COINS, but the AV translators use the same word for both of them!

It should also be noted that Matthew 10:29 and Luke 12:6 are not examples of the varying value of a coin, rather it is an example of a voulme discount. Think of it in terms of going to your local store and seeing a sign that reads "Two Apples for a Dollar or Five Apples for two Dollars" you get an extra apple (or sparrow) for buying more. This also serves to illustrate a great lesson on God's love in that He cares even for the sparrow that has no monetary value.

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Originally Posted by bibleprotector View Post
The word “farthing” means quarter. The reality is that a farthing is a quarter value coin! The coin in the Bible is exactly that. Therefore the word “farthing” is completely accurate and correct.
The word "Farthing" is devived from an Old English word that means "a fourth of a thing." However, when used in relation to coinage it ALWAYS means a fourth of a Penny. In none of the four cases that I am aware of in the Bible where "Farthing" is used does it refer to a fourth of a Denarius. In two of the cases (Assarion) it is 1/16th of a Denarius and in the other two cases (Kodrantes) it is 1/64th of a Denarius.

When the AV translators selected the word "Farthing" they were doing just what the did when the used "Penny" that was to use a common contemporary word for a small bronze coin of little value in 1611 to discribe a two different small bronze coins of little value used in ancient times.
  #23  
Old 07-01-2009, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by HowlerMonkey View Post
While it is true that the idea for the Penny can trace it's roots back to the Roman Denarius
Then what is the issue?

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Originally Posted by HowlerMonkey View Post
it is not correct to call the Denarius and the Penny "the same thing."
It is correct to say that Jesus handled a penny, regardless of the shape, size, composition, superscription and relative value of either coin. The fact remains that there is a direct link between the English coin and the Roman one, therefore it is entirely correct to call the coin Jesus handled a penny.

But let us advance. If the problem is that an English word is being used to describe something from the time of Christ, then the problem must be that we have a Bible which is representing Christ speaking English, or that we are told that the soldiers had a "common hall" at Jerusalem, or that Herod waited for "Easter" to pass.

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Originally Posted by HowlerMonkey View Post
This is a case where the Greek illuminates the English translation. The Greek word used in Mark 12:42 is "Kodrantes" while the Greel word used in Matthew 10:29 and Luke 12:6 is "Assarion," These are TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF COINS, but the AV translators use the same word for both of them!
This is an example of being confused by the "Greek", as though it "trumps" English. The word "farthing" always refers to a quarter value coin of low buying power. For example, we know that there was a Roman coin called the "quadrans", and that this was a quarter value coin. Thus, the word "farthing" in our English Bible is entirely accurate.

Let us advance. If the problem is that the same English word is being used for several meanings, then there would be an issue to calling someone "Jesus" who is not the Lord Christ (Col, 4:11, Heb. 4:8), or saying that someone was a lord or king, when God is Lord and King, or saying that God tempted Abraham (Gen. 22:1), when God does not tempt anyone (James 1:13).
  #24  
Old 07-01-2009, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish View Post
I guess it depends on who is doing the "defining."

You have to consider who is adding the notes.
For example, it is no secret that Virginia Mollenkott (a lesbian) served as a consultant on the NIV translating committee, together with the deceased Marten H. Woudstra (a homosexual), and therefore it is no wonder that the word "sodomite" is not found in the NIV. I guess they decided it was too "hard" of a word so they simply deleted it.

I have found the KJV Bible will usually explain itself if we believers give it a chance and allow God's Spirit to teach us.
It is SO refreshing to see someone else tell the truth about the people who wrote the new bible versions.
Per-versions.
  #25  
Old 07-01-2009, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
This is an example of being confused by the "Greek", as though it "trumps" English. The word "farthing" always refers to a quarter value coin of low buying power. For example, we know that there was a Roman coin called the "quadrans", and that this was a quarter value coin. Thus, the word "farthing" in our English Bible is entirely accurate.
Bibleprotector, I am not wanting to beat a dead horse and it is clear that your mind is fixed on this issue. I also don't want to allow a friendly debate to turn into an argument and (although I may be wrong) you seem to be getting a little irritable over it.

However, it should be obvious that the Greek "trumps" the English because the English was translated from the Greek. Were it not for the Greek NT, there would be no English NT.

It is also obvious in the case of the coins that we are talking about that the Greek is much more specific than the English. When you have two different coins, the "Assarion" and the "Kodrantes" which were the Roman As and the Roman Quadrans and the As was worth 1/16th of a Denarius while the Quadrans was worth 1/64th of a Denarius, both translated "Farthing" it just goes without saying that the Greek is more specific and more accurate than the English.

It is also not correct to say that "any coin worth 1/4th of another coin is considered a Farthing." If that were true a Penny would also be a Farthing because it is worth 1/4 of a Groat. The translators could have saved a lot of time and translated every coin in the NT as "Farthing" because every coin mentioned is worth 1/4 of some other coin.
  #26  
Old 07-01-2009, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by HowlerMonkey View Post
However, it should be obvious that the Greek "trumps" the English because the English was translated from the Greek. Were it not for the Greek NT, there would be no English NT.
If the Greek trumps English, then the Word of God is not fully in English. We would still need to be in subjection to those who really know Greek. Surely, God is not so weak to have His Word trapped in Greek, when He promised in Romans 16:26, "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith".

If Greek were really the final authority, then there would be a perfect Greek standard edition. As it is, there is no perfect, flawless or complete Greek text in any extant copy. When it comes to agreement, the King James Bible only people are all looking to one common world-wide standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HowlerMonkey View Post
It is also obvious in the case of the coins that we are talking about that the Greek is much more specific than the English.
This is not obvious, except obviously a slight against our English Bible. If it were not translated properly into English in 1611, when and where is the proper English translation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HowlerMonkey View Post
"Farthing" it just goes without saying that the Greek is more specific and more accurate than the English.
Since men do not know everything, but can believe that God is able to get His Word to us, then it is certain that "farthing" is a correct term, which accurately describes a quarter value coin. The truth is that farthings must have been used in the Roman Empire, and upon examination of facts, we find that this is the correct sense, for quarter value coins were used.

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Originally Posted by HowlerMonkey View Post
It is also not correct to say that "any coin worth 1/4th of another coin is considered a Farthing."
That is a straw man argument, because you are not quoting me. When we read "penny", "farthing", "pound" or "mile" in the Bible, we cannot assume that using the English word is wrong, just because there may be some peculiar differences between the present form of such things and what was used in the Bible times. (If present vulgar use is the standard, argument could be made against using the word "gay" or "bottle" or "glass", but the Bible English use of words is entirely accurate.)

To imply that a Greek or Roman word must be used is to say that God's Word should not be translated. Are we to have "pneuma", "pascha", etc. instead of our English words? If "penny" or "farthing" are inaccurate, then having the Scripture in English is "inaccurate" because it is a different language to Greek.

But if the Word of God is fully, sense-for-sense, in English, then we can rightly say that the English Bible is true, and that it is equal to what was originally inspired.
  #27  
Old 07-04-2009, 06:16 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
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Hi Folks,

As often happens with the experts who want to disbelieve the pure Bible, views are extracted, and presented as fact, that are very dubious. The presenter simply assumes that he can hide the truth, or he has convinced himself of some "error" in the Bible, since he considers himself such an authority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HowlerMonkey
When you have two different coins, the "Assarion" and the "Kodrantes" which were the Roman As and the Roman Quadrans and the As was worth 1/16th of a Denarius while the Quadrans was worth 1/64th of a Denarius, both translated "Farthing"
So today we have easy access to a discussion like that in :

http://books.google.com/books?id=OJUAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA200
A dictionary of Christ and the Gospels By James Hastings, John Alexander Selbie, John C. Lambert

This gets a bit technical, and I am sure there are many more points that could be discussed, however you will see very clearly that the view that the assarion was the Roman As worth 1/16th of a Denarius is very strongly contested. And that the alternate view would fit the Bible, and not the Howler's objection.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
 

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