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Old 07-01-2009, 08:03 PM
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Default Re: "Dispensational Truth and Error"

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN G View Post
"Thanks for your courteous reply Bro. George. No doubt, I still have a lot to learn.

I must contend, however, that Nicodemus already believed in a resurrection
."
John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Acts 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

"I also think they Nicodemus should have realized [and I believe he eventually did] the powerful loaded terms the Lord Jesus was using. The “Son of man” and Moses and the serpent references should have sent alarms off in Nicodemus’ head to see the Truth sitting before him."
John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Num 21:7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

"Here is Paul before Agrippa and Festus….."

Act 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Act 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.


"Nicodemus, being a master of Israel, should have seen Him coming.

Good discussion…
"
JohnG,

Here are your statements (with my comments):
Quote:
"I must contend, however, that Nicodemus already believed in a resurrection ."
So what! He knew NOTHING about the specific death, burial, and RESURRECTION of the Lord Jesus Christ (and that was my "point".) All of the Pharisees "professed" to believe in the resurrection - and they still REJECTED their Messiah & King, and had him KILLED! And after the Lord Jesus Christ's resurrection the Pharisees again REJECTED the Apostles' and Disciples' testimony that Christ had indeed "Risen from the dead"!

{The facts are - the Pharisees REFUSED to BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ's RESURRECTION, and that's the "resurrection" that "counts". Your "point" is "fallacious" and without any merit whatsoever.}

Quote:
"I also think they Nicodemus should have realized [and I believe he eventually did] the powerful loaded terms the Lord Jesus was using. The “Son of man” and Moses and the serpent references should have sent alarms off in Nicodemus’ head to see the Truth sitting before him."
Your point that you: "think they Nicodemus should have realized [and I believe he eventually did]" Is pure "hypothesis" without one single verse of Scripture to back up your "guesswork". And again, your claim that: "The “Son of man” and Moses and the serpent references should have sent alarms off in Nicodemus’ head to see the Truth sitting before him."Is pure "assumption" on your part. Your whole point, from beginning to end, is just wild "speculation". "I think"; I "believe"; and "should have" are all your "private personal opinion", and NOT Scriptural PROOF or SUPPORT for any of your "conjectures"!

Quote:
"Nicodemus, being a master of Israel, should have seen Him coming."

Good discussion…
"
WHY is it that Nicodemus "should have seen Him coming"? Hardly any other of the other Pharisees saw "Him coming"! As a matter of fact the Lord's disciples (who spent practically everyday with Him) - DID NOT "SEE HIM COMING"!

John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.
4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

Now, If the Lord Jesus Christ's own disciples DID NOT KNOW that he was going to "rise again from the dead" - How in the world was Nicodemus supposed to know? Hmmm?

From the beginning of your Post until the end, all you have given us is your "private opinion" about what you "think" and "believe" SHOULD HAVE happened! Your mis-handling of the Holy Scriptures is without excuse! {Winman should be proud that you are in "agreement" with him!}

And in regards to the "cheap shot" that you took at sister Jennifer (greenbear): Your snide remarks were uncalled for and totally without charity. You've got a whole lot of "nerve" to make personal slanderous remarks about a sister in Christ about whom you know nothing about!

For being a "stranger" to the Forum, you sure are lacking in common courtesy and consideration! Don't expect any more "discussion" or "dialogue" from me on anything more you may have to say on this Forum. Your personal insults to a sister in Christ "crossed a line" (with me). You sure do "have a lot to learn" - and I don't only mean about "rightly dividing the word of truth"; you need to learn something about common decency and respect!

Last edited by George; 07-01-2009 at 08:09 PM.
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  #62  
Old 07-01-2009, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN G View Post
Hey Bro. Chette,

I don't mean any offence at all. I hope we can all work together as brothers and sisters in Christ in growing closer to the image of Him (Rom. 8:29).
But you did cause offense to Sister Greenbear and to George (that is obvious by his post). So take the right steps to make things right.

and the things George said about the word of God. He is correct. you added a whole lot of JohnG and no Bible to your statements of Nicodemus. Remember too Paul used the resurrection to divide the court of Pharisees (who believed in a resurrection and Sadducee's to did not) in Acts 23:6, 7 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men [and] brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided. so John 3 was not about Nicodemus believing in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ because it never took place yet and he was blinded to any truth of it.

It is easy for us to look back and place our understanding into it. but we need to be careful in so doing we can change the word of God just like Winman, Ironside and most Covenant Theologists today do.
  #63  
Old 07-01-2009, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish View Post
George, I have to give you credit there.
I notice you agree with Greenbear's "assessment" of Ironside, yet you ALSO pretty much agree with Ironside's negative view of Hyperdispensationalism, something that Greenbear has indicated she may be leaning toward. That's pretty good diplomacy, brother.

Brothers and Sisters:

I haven't made a lot of posts on this thread, but in reflecting on some of these comments, it has occurred to me that I have seen good Christians beaten up and spurned because they do not agree with one view of dispensationalism over another. I have seen KJV believers have their very SALVATION questioned because they do not subscribe to some "construct" of division. I have seen good people on this forum become bitter and wage vicious attacks about details that even they THEMSELVES do not all agree on, even in their own little "camps." At times I have seen a pompous spirit rise up, which seems to suggest there is only ONE WAY of "rightly dividing" and no other could possibly be correct. I am convinced that much of this has more to do with personal friendships and alliances than it does with scriptural ABSOLUTES. Still, we put up our banners of interpretation and stake out territories, as though any of us could possibly come to a different conclusion in the end that ALL MEN are saved THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

This is all very sad, because even the men who have promoted various forms of Hyperdispensationalism, Ultra-dispensationalism, etc. do not all agree on some of these doctrines, and some have even changed their doctrines over the years to better suit their own constructs!

There are Ultras and Hypers on one end, there are non-dispensationalists on the other. A lot of us are somewhere in the middle. As you all know by now, I consider myself to be a moderate dispensationalist. Yes, I feel that Hyperdispensationalism is a chain of errors and an unworthy distraction, yes I get concerned when I see attacks on Biblical doctrines of believer's baptism and the Lord's supper, but that does not mean we should become hateful or angry at one another.

I have come to a conclusion over these last few weeks.
Whether you choose to base your views on the confusion of Cornelius Stam or proudly cherry-pick the heresies of Bullingerism, I think we can all agree on one thing: CONDEMNING OTHERS about DIVIDING can DIVIDE THIS FORUM. Folks, let's pray for each other, and lift up Christ.
Bro. Parrish,

I can't help but notice you begin your post with an inference that George is inconsistent in his post #56 to me:
Quote:
George, I have to give you credit there.
I notice you agree with Greenbear's "assessment" of Ironside, yet you ALSO pretty much agree with Ironside's negative view of Hyperdispensationalism, something that Greenbear has indicated she may be leaning toward. That's pretty good diplomacy, brother.
You note that brother George stated that he agrees with my assessment of Ironside's article, which is :
Quote:
In my opinion, Ironside resorts to character assassination, name-calling, fear-mongering, straw-man arguments, faulty reasoning, wrong interpretation of scriptures and he doesn't seem very strong in eschatology, either. Attempting to influence opinion by labeling those who disagree as a heretic by the "orthodox" consensus is the oldest trick in the book. I think the correct perspective is that the refomation didn't go very far toward literal interpretation of all scripture unless it is apparent from the text that it should be read otherwise. Men like Ironside were greatly used of God but they didn't go far enough in literal interpretation. It is impossible to literally interpret the scriptures without a dispensational framework.
I also happen to agree with brother George's comments about Ironside's first five points. I don't believe I've espoused those first five positions in my posts.

I notice you haven't specifically addressed what I have written but instead pick up on a comment where I say that I may agree on some points with what I've read about Hyperdispensationalism.
From my post #50:
Quote:
I think the correct perspective is that the refomation didn't go very far toward literal interpretation of all scripture unless it is apparent from the text that it should be read otherwise. Men like Ironside were greatly used of God but they didn't go far enough in literal interpretation. It is impossible to literally interpret the scriptures without a dispensational framework. If people want to label me as something or other because I may agree on some points, oh well.
Ironside's article is not the be all and end all of the subject matter.
Ironside's descriptions of the positions are very limited and slanted.
Just the other day I had the bright idea of googling hyper and ultra. So I have a little more insight than just what is in your article. I believe brother George was referring to what I have written on this thread and other threads. I also believe brother George has more insight into hyper and ultra than what Ironside wrote. I think the inconsistency was in your own mind for whatever reason.

I posted on this thread that I don't believe there are two churches. That would mean there are two bodies of Christ. That is impossible. It's also impossible, by my understanding, that the church of the circumcision was under the dispensation of grace by faith alone, which I understand to be Paul's gospel. Once the wall of partition between the jews and the gentiles was removed, the Jewish and the gentile parts of the church became one.

Ephesians 2:14-22 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

I don't see why you intimate George is inconsistent in his post to me. Except for Ironside's point 6, I believe George and I am in agreement.

Since I think you have read a lot of my posts on this forum you are probably aware of my position on water baptism. I believe the same for the Lord's Supper. I don't believe there are any ordinances for the church under the dispensation of grace. I do know that it isn't a salvation issue and I understand you don't want us to become hateful and angry at each other over these two ordinances. I agree.

Bro. Parrish:
Quote:
Whether you choose to base your views on the confusion of Cornelius Stam or proudly cherry-pick the heresies of Bullingerism, I think we can all agree on one thing: CONDEMNING OTHERS about DIVIDING can DIVIDE THIS FORUM. Folks, let's pray for each other, and lift up Christ.
You sure deliver a one, two punch followed by a bear hug above. You miss the point, bro Parrish. Some of us don't base our views on any human author's writings. We don't go to some man's body of material and cherry pick teachings to piece together our doctrines. We will study the bible and come to our own conclusions. If we end up finding any points of agreement with these men it simply means they may be right on something after all!

Last edited by greenbear; 07-01-2009 at 09:53 PM.
  #64  
Old 07-01-2009, 10:40 PM
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Default I must say...

I must say that I agree with brothers George and Chette and sister Greenbear.

If you read the gospels carefully, you see evidence that even the DISCIPLES, those who were the very CLOSEST to Jesus were unaware! How could, therefore, others be aware and KNOW? They didn't know!

Look at the following Scripture as examples:

Mark 9:32 - But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

Luke 2:50 - And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

Luke 9:45 - But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

John 8:27 - They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

John 10:6 - This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what thing they were which he spake unto them.

John 12:16 - These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

Jassy
  #65  
Old 07-01-2009, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbear View Post
I notice you haven't specifically addressed what I have written but instead pick up on a comment where I say that I may agree on some points with what I've read about Hyperdispensationalism.
Well, it is what it is, sister.
And to be straight forward, you didn't just say you "MAY AGREE on SOME POINTS,"
your comment from post no. 36 was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbear View Post
"I find I hold a lot of the views of a hyperdispensationalist."
I was simply taking you at your own word, based on your own stated position.

Quote:
You sure deliver a one, two punch followed by a bear hug above. You miss the point, bro Parrish. Some of us don't base our views on any human author's writings. We don't go to some man's body of material and cherry pick teachings to piece together our doctrines. We will study the bible and come to our own conclusions.
Yes, that's exactly what I suggested in post no. 35, when I stated:
"Ultimately, every believer will have to examine the scriptures and decide for themselves."

I think it's fair to say that many here have done that also, including some of those who don't agree with the errors of Hyperdispensationalism (imagine that). From what I have SEEN, I don't think there are a lot of people here who hold to that doctrine to be honest, but that is only my opinion based on the posts we see. Either way Jennifer, people are free to make their own choices.
  #66  
Old 07-01-2009, 10:54 PM
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Bro Parish,

Before you make another crack about anyone saying someone was not saved or they didn't have salvation please reread my original post which is in another thread and read post #60. you will no longer have ammo for saying such. for like Winman you read my post the way you want too, without my context.

But I think post #60 will clear up any questions as to what I meant.
  #67  
Old 07-01-2009, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jassy View Post
I must say that I agree with brothers George and Chette and sister Greenbear.

If you read the gospels carefully, you see evidence that even the DISCIPLES, those who were the very CLOSEST to Jesus were unaware! How could, therefore, others be aware and KNOW? They didn't know!

Look at the following Scripture as examples:

Mark 9:32 - But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

Luke 2:50 - And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

Luke 9:45 - But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

John 8:27 - They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

John 10:6 - This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what thing they were which he spake unto them.

John 12:16 - These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

Jassy
Jassy,

I guess it is apparent that they did not understand!!!!

Forgive me for posting an entire chapter but I couldn't find any place to start but verse 1 or any place to end but verse 53. I tried to make it easier to read by adding color.

Lu*24:1 ¶ Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
Lu*24:2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
Lu*24:3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
Lu*24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
Lu*24:5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
Lu*24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
Lu*24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
Lu*24:8 And they remembered his words,
Lu*24:9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.
Lu*24:10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
Lu*24:11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
Lu*24:12 Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.
Lu*24:13 ¶ And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
Lu*24:14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
Lu*24:15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
Lu*24:16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
Lu*24:17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
Lu*24:18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
Lu*24:19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
Lu*24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
Lu*24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
Lu*24:22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
Lu*24:23 And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
Lu*24:24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
Lu*24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Lu*24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Lu*24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Lu*24:28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
Lu*24:29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
Lu*24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
Lu*24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
Lu*24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Lu*24:33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
Lu*24:34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
Lu*24:35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
Lu*24:36 ¶ And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Lu*24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Lu*24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Lu*24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Lu*24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
Lu*24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
Lu*24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
Lu*24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
Lu*24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Lu*24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Lu*24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Lu*24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Lu*24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Lu*24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Lu*24:50 ¶ And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
Lu*24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
Lu*24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
Lu*24:53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.


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Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
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Last edited by greenbear; 07-01-2009 at 11:33 PM.
  #68  
Old 07-01-2009, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish View Post
Well, it is what it is, sister.
And to be straight forward, you didn't just say you "MAY AGREE on SOME POINTS,"
your comment from post no. 36 was:



I was simply taking you at your own word, based on your own stated position.



Yes, that's exactly what I suggested in post no. 35, when I stated:
"Ultimately, every believer will have to examine the scriptures and decide for themselves."

I think it's fair to say that many here have done that also, including some of those who don't agree with the errors of Hyperdispensationalism (imagine that). From what I have SEEN, I don't think there are a lot of people here who hold to that doctrine to be honest, but that is only my opinion based on the posts we see. Either way Jennifer, people are free to make their own choices.
Yeah, from what I've read. Ironside, though. It's like growing into an adult and seeing that your parents are just frail, weak sinners like you are. (The collective "you", not you personally.) Can you give a sister a break while she decides for herself before labeling her? I know how you get with the hypers and I'd like to buy a little time before the abuse starts.
  #69  
Old 07-01-2009, 11:32 PM
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Jen,

It is easy for some to hurl abuses and false claims than it is the exercise Charity. keep up the good work your husband should be really proud of you for the way you kept your confidence in the word and not in men, and your cool under fire.

you focus on his word and you will grow faster than some of these 60 plus year old's on this site.

blessing in his word
  #70  
Old 07-01-2009, 11:57 PM
JOHN G JOHN G is offline
 
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John 20:
Quote:
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
What is meant by "the scripture" in this verse? And if it is any scripture in the OT, shouldn't "a master [teacher of the OT] of Israel" have known it?

Why would Jesus call the Emmaus travelers fools if they weren't supposed to know He was to be resurrected?
Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Blessings

Last edited by JOHN G; 07-01-2009 at 11:59 PM. Reason: Indicate Chapter
 

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