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Old 05-26-2009, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by George View Post
Aloha sister greenbear,

You have nothing to "apologize" for. I just thought when you said: "Sometimes when Americans say "Ouch" in this context it means you've struck a nerve, or what you say is true and it hits close to home or it is convicting." that the statement was possibly in reference to brother Forrest.

All of what you said is absolutely true and I agree wholeheartedly with the entire statement, I may have misunderstood HOW you were applying it and to WHOM.

Anyway, it's no big deal - as long as I haven't offended you; and if I have, I apologize. On the other hand, I would still recommend that you check out brother Forrest's Posts and Web site. I know of very few Christians that are as conscience of the importance of the Lord Jesus Christ's living within in us, and His influence in a Christian's life as brother Forrest is.
Aloha, Brother George.

Aha!! Now I understand. I didn't mean it to apply directly to brother Forrest but now that you point it out I can see how it could be read that way. If I offended Brother Forrest, I apologise. I usually know what I mean, the tricky part is conveying it to others through the written word! LOL. I may have a few sharp edges but they have to be filed down somewhere and this board seems to be where I have landed.

No offense taken, I just didn't understand what you meant.

I look forward to thoroughly checking out brother Forrest's posts and website. The Lord has been convicting my heart about the necessity of abiding in His Spirit and is lovingly providing the means to grow in grace and knowledge of Him.

I wanted to thank you for your study under topic "is water baptism for today" post 188. Although I can't hold with you on water baptism, the study is truly amazing. I will read it many times. In fact, I may commit it to memory. What a fantastic, concise summary of dispensational truth as found in the book of Acts. I plan to check out your "longer" studies on the topic, too. Thanks for writing them.

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Old 05-29-2009, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by peopleoftheway View Post
Do you believe a Born again Christian can lose their salvation?

I have a lot of questions about that, based on scripture.

Do you realise that the Book of James is addressed to "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad"
Do you believe, then, the book of James is not directed towards you?

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

How many books of the bible do you feel are not addressed to modern day Christians?
Old 05-29-2009, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
Personally, I would begin here:
Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Excuse my obtuseness, but, would you be so kind as to explain what work each of the quotes represents? Little old silly me doesn't get it.

PS SORRY IT TOOK ME SO LONG TO ANSWER, I forgot to check "the box".
Old 05-29-2009, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
Here is one of the most neglected works after salvation amongst many Christians today Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

If any man wants to do any work this is what God expects from you. simple to see even harder to do but with it comes great blessings
Chette- Thanks for posting this verse along with your comments. I don't know what else we could possibly give to Him in return for being redeemed from an eternity in the Lake of Fire to spend an eternity with Him.
Old 05-29-2009, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by George View Post

Our "WORKS" have absolutely NOTHING to do with our SALVATION? The Lord Jesus Christ did it ALL - ALL to Him I owe.

DEAR GEORGIE: I NEVER said we could earn our SALVATION. I did quote the bible, which is Jesus, the Word of God, and say our works will be judged, and, as the good book says, based on our works, we will get into "trouble or get rewards"

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Right, salvation itself is not through anyone but Jesus.
AFTER salvation, are we supposed to ignore the poor, the needy, etc.?

No, we are not: 14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15: If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16: And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

No matter how you look at it, George, we DO have Godly works to do, after salvation. Unless, of course, we are saved a few seconds before we die.
(well,even there, you can speak Godly praise) AND, here's another exhortation to do good works after we are saved:
15: By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
16: But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

Another verse or 2: 24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25: Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
If you believe you have been saved, but you have no desire to show charity, brotherly kindness, visit and comfort widows and orphans, help where you can help, well, your faith is without works, and you are still spiritually dead. according to the Word of God.
(I don't agree with Calvinism,btw)

Here are my answers to some things you said:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, AS a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
{This is NOT speaking about Christ’s “SHEEP”! Do you see the word “AS”?
It looks to me like the as is applied to SHEPHERD.
The Lord is using a “simile” to explain what is going to take place (the judgment of the NATIONS) immediately after He returns to the earth, at the beginning of His Millennial reign. On the one hand (the right), The Lord Jesus Christ is explaining that those NATIONS (the sheep)
Why does Jesus call us his sheep, and call himself the Good Shepherd, in your opinion?
who treated the Jews kindly and helped and supported them,
Oops! Looks like a work, there, Georgie.

will get to live and go into His Kingdom. While on the other hand (the left) those NATIONS (the goats) who neglected or refused to help or assist the Jews, or those NATIONS who actively opposed them are going to be sent into “everlasting fire & punishment”.

Everlasting fire and punishment, is that the same place as the fire and brimstone spoken of here, reserved for people(singlular, souls, people not nations) 9: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Read the verses (in CONTEXT) – these verses are NOT talking about the “atonement”, or New Testament salvation, or Christ’s “SHEEP”. These are in reference to THE JUDGMENT OF THE NATIONS,
Not talking about Christ's sheep? Oh, you mean the people, not the nations of people. Right? Sheep in one place of the bible means people, sheep in another place means nations, which is a group of people, as a whole, not single people, who will inherit his Kingdom, right? So, sheep, even though it means nations, does not mean people who will be in His Kingdom?

which will take place immediately after the end of the Great Tribulation. This is NOT THE “Judgment Seat of Christ” (for Christians),
Yes, I know this. Looks like the Judgement Seat of Christ will judge us by whatever WORKS of ours remain:
12: Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13: Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14: If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Where in the bible does Jesus Christ tell us there are separate places of eternal torment? I could not extrapolate that from the Scriptures.
I seem to get that inference from you, that there are different places in eternity that deal with tormenting.
and NEITHER is it the “Great White Throne” Judgment (for the “dead”);
The GWT Judgement, here's a great page of answers for you:

Whichever view one holds of the great white throne judgment, it is important to never lose sight of the facts concerning the coming judgment(s). First, Jesus Christ will be the judge, all unbelievers will be judged by Christ, and they will be punished according to the works they have done. The Bible is very clear that unbelievers are storing up wrath against themselves (Romans 2:5) and that God will “give to each person according to what he has done” (Romans 2:6). Believers will also be judged by Christ, but since Christ’s righteousness has been imputed to us and our names are written in the book of life, we will be rewarded, but not punished, according to our deeds. Romans 14:10-12 says that we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ and that each one of us will give an account to God.
this is “The Judgment of the Nations”! This is “rightly dividing the word of truth” -101! Couldn’t Calvin READ? Can his “followers” READ?
Are you being rude, here, Georgie? I'm betting Calvin and most of his followers had a rudimentary understanding of words and reading.

Please don't yell.
Old 05-29-2009, 03:43 PM
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No matter how you slice it buddy, we are to do good works, after we're saved.

AFTER. After. after!
Old 05-29-2009, 03:54 PM
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Jassy, you know as well as I do that we have works we are to do, after we are saved.
We've talked at length in the past about this. And, you know, YOU KNOW I DESPISE Calvinism.
I'm not putting myself under the OT laws, I am talking about the NEW Testament, and what Jesus says: 16: But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
and: 23: For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25: But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26: If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27: Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
bridling your tongue, a work, visiting people, a work, walk in works before ordained by God, works, to do good, a work, ...............

We have works to do, we are to LOVE everyone, even our enemies, we are to show compassion, we are to SPEAK the Word, the Gospel, we are to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we are to discern, we are to submit ourselves to God, we are to give to the poor, and visit people in prison, whether it is a SPIRITUAL prison, or a tangible prison, and I can go on and on about the works God has before ordained for us to do.
When I pass out tracts, I walk, I drive my car, I DO things in order to pass those tracts out.

Originally Posted by Jassy View Post
biblereader -

My dear Sis in Christ,

I see you posting things about the LAW and WORKS.

I've undergone some wonderful new understandings of this.

My faith is not under CALVINISM - which I know you vehemently disagree with and which I don't believe in - but my faith is not under the LAW either. As I've seen others here say - we don't have to believe in this or that "-ISM" and we don't have to be this or that "-IST." We just have to believe in the Word of God, as our reading and studying and the Holy Spirit reveals to us. We are all ONE MIND in Christ, are we not?

A lot of the people here at AV1611 (from what I have seen) are, like you, against Calvinism.

However, Calvinism is more than just GRACE. They have added an entire doctrine (TULIP) that is not biblical.

Regarding works - our faith is under grace... and not Law now. Because Jesus FULFILLED that Law.

That Law was still good and true and holy, yes! However, it was for the Jews, before Christ came.

Take note that some of the respondents were referring you to look at to WHOM a particular BOOK of the Bible was written to.

Portions of the Bible are history; portions are for our instruction, portions are for doctrine, portions are for reproof, portions are for correction... (2 Timothy 3:16). Each and every Scripture is not written for ALL reasons. We have to be very careful not to improperly apply history as doctrine, or correction as reproof. Reproof is like REBUKING. Correction is like showing what is done inaccurately.

The Jews were to have seen that Christ was that perfect sacrifice that all of their rituals and holy days pointed towards. He was the Lamb that was slaughtered, with His Blood on their doorpost (as on the cross). It's an analogy that just SCREAMS of the truth! Gentiles are not under that system of Law that the Jews were under. In fact, if you read Paul's writings, you will see him admonishing the Jews for trying to go back under the law again and teaching others to do the same.

If we are indeed saved, we will WANT to do good works. We don't do them to GET saved. Nor to get a reward - but because we are of Jesus and we will glorify Him, and show Him and His sacrifice to the world, until the day of our resurrection comes! That "witnessing" is a form of "works" also - if you want to get real technical about it.

We do nothing to glorify SELF - but all to the glory and honor of our LORD Jesus Christ.

Old 05-29-2009, 04:07 PM
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35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

I hope you don't think that we should NOT feed the hungry, if and as the Lord has blessed us, if we can give food to people who need it, is that not a GOOD work?
We do nothing to glorify ourselves, AMEN!
You KNOW we agree on that, Jassy.
All that is done for Jesus will survive the fires of burning at the Judgement Seat of Christ.

27: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28: Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29: For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30: And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

We are given gifts from the Holy Spirit, after we are saved. Are we to do nothing with those gifts? If we don't, if we hide our talents, we will be cast into outer darkness.
George, we are to do good works after we are saved:
12: Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

24: Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.
25: Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

17: Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
18: That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
19: Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

8: And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

I never said we must EARN our salvation. I DO REPEAT what the bible says, though, about good works of believers, those who are truly born again.
Everyone, even a little child, can speak a good work, or share, or smile, or be kind, or give to someone who has nothing.
Old 05-29-2009, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by biblereader View Post
Excuse my obtuseness, but, would you be so kind as to explain what work each of the quotes represents? Little old silly me doesn't get it.

PS SORRY IT TOOK ME SO LONG TO ANSWER, I forgot to check "the box".
I recommended you start with Colossians 2:6-10 because it results in doing whatever good work Jesus Christ directs you to. Develop a passion for Christ not works. Long to love Christ not to do lists. Seek to know Christ not principles, plans, programs, or procedures.

The genuine Christian life is devotion to Christ which in turn results in fulfilling your duty. The genuine Christian life is a relationship with Christ which in turn results in fulfilling your responsibilities.

The branch that is abiding in the vine will bear fruit. It does not commit, strain, work at, try hard, or attend the latest and greatest plant growth seminar. It simply abides in the vine and bears fruit.

I don't know what work the Master Teacher is leading you to do. I'll let Him tell you. Be still, be small, and listen to His still, small voice. Be a Christian...know, love, and follow Christ! The Good Shepherd will guide you. I recommend you start with this passage, believe it, and come to the place of self-less humility and Christ centered faith that really "works"! It is basic in Christ results in spontaneous Christ-like behavior. That is exactly what James taught. Genuine faith results in genuine works!

For my brief commentary on this passage go here:
Old 05-29-2009, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Winman View Post
See! Brother George is just a big softy! He even knows how to say "I apologize", something I have had great difficulty doing my whole life.

Brother George, I myself enjoy your experience and scholarship. And I respect a person who stands for their principles. I have heard preachers say,

"A man who does not stand for his principles will fall for anything"

I do not always agree with you 100%, I have never known any two people who agree 100%. But I agree with probably 99% of what you say and write. I am not kissing up, but I respect an elder in the faith.

I went over to the FFF about an hour ago because I was told they were ridiculing me (and they were) about a UFO experience I wrote about. They had another thread going, ridiculing you. I am very complimented and privilaged to share this persecution with you.
Winman- somehow I missed this post before. That is so funny in an absurd way that people on FFF are ridiculing your UFO testimonies and that there is even a thread devoted to ridiculing George! What is wrong with these people? They need to get a life- literally. I registered on FFF one night, then the first and only post I read was two people bragging about being banned from AV1611. I was able to determine AV1611 was KJVO so I came right over and never went back.

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