Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
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Old 05-23-2009, 06:46 PM
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greenbear greenbear is offline
 
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Default Isaiah 14:12 KJV vs. other translations

I remember when I looked into the Bible version issue there were changes to three verses or passages that shocked me the most. The first two changes made to some of the versions, John 4:2-3 and 2 John 1:7, attacked the doctrine that Jesus came in the flesh. If God didn't become a man then he couldn't pay for our sins and the Gospel is a lie.

All three changes, however, were blatantly designed to blur the distinction between the Lord Jesus Christ and Lucifer/Satan. They help prepare the world to receive the Son of Perdition/Man of Sin/Antichrist as the Messiah of Israel and the savior of the world. The third verse change, which is dealt with here, is Isaiah 14:12.

Who do the scriptures name as the “morning star” and the “day star”? The King James Bible declares that Jesus is the "morning star" and the "day star". Many of the other translation declare in Isaiah 14:12 that Lucifer is the "morning star" and the "day star".

KJV
2 Peter 1:19: “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:”

KJV
Revelation 22:16: “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”

KJV
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

Lucifer is the “son of the morning” in Isaiah 14:12 in the KJV. Six out of the ten other translations of Isaiah 14:12 listed below also fail to identify Lucifer as the one being addressed in this verse. In those six translations this verse could just as well be addressed to Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten Son of God. How inconvenient it would be to have to counter the New-age and occultist view of some that Jesus IS Lucifer if you are wielding the NIV “sword”, for instance. All they have to do is ask you to turn to Isaiah 14:12 to support their view. The New-ager would be able to "teach" you that Isaiah 14:12 shows the destiny of Jesus, not Lucifer, if he/she can show you where Jesus is also referred to as the "morning or day star" in another place in the Bible or another translation.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
King James Bible

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...
New International Version

How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!


New King James Version

How are you fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how are you cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations!


American Standard Version

How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, that didst lay low the nations!


Bible in Basic English

How great is your fall from heaven, O shining one, son of the morning! How are you cut down to the earth, low among the dead bodies!


Douay-Rheims Bible

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations?


Darby Bible Translation

How art thou fallen from heaven, Lucifer, son of the morning! Thou art cut down to the ground, that didst prostrate the nations!


English Revised Version

How art thou fallen from heaven, O day star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst lay low the nations!


Webster's Bible Translation

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


World English Bible

How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, who laid the nations low!


Young's Literal Translation

How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations.


Every part of the verse is changed in some way from the KJV in every translation. Some of the translations also change “How art thou fallen from heaven…” from an expression of awe to a question even though they don’t add a question mark at the end of the sentence.

The other versions change “how art thou cut down to the ground” to cast or cut down to the earth, or fallen to the earth. Consider the preceding verses Isaiah 14:1-11. This passage describes the millennial kingdom and the destiny of Lucifer.

Isaiah
KJV
14:1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
14:2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
14:3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve, 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! 14:5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
14:6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
14:7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
14:8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Clearly, in the next verse, 14:12, “how art thou cut down to the ground” is not just describing falling from heaven to earth like some of the other translations do. “Cut down to the ground” means Lucifer encounters Hell from beneath that is moved to meet him at his coming. The dead kings of the earth, and all the dead, are raised up and marvel that Lucifer has become as they are. Any semblance of his beauty, majesty, grandeur, and musical ability is destroyed as he joins the “worms”, the bodies of the dead in Hell.

Last edited by greenbear; 05-23-2009 at 07:06 PM. Reason: added reference
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  #2  
Old 05-23-2009, 08:26 PM
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"I remember when I looked into the Bible version issue there were changes to three verses or passages that shocked me the most. The first two changes made to some of the versions, John 4:2-3 and 2 John 1:7, attacked the doctrine that Jesus came in the flesh. If God didn't become a man then he couldn't pay for our sins and the Gospel is a lie."

Make that 1 John 4:2-3.
  #3  
Old 05-23-2009, 11:02 PM
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they poorly translate Lucifer which really means light bearer as Bright morning star. which is the poorest form of scholarship I have ever witnessed. the translators of the 1611AV were man enough to admit translating the Hebrew word would be wrong so they just transliterated it into English which is a good rule to follow when a translation wont work or will cause confusion. in this case it confuses the person of Jesus Christ Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. with Lucifer, the Devil, who is Satan.
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Old 05-24-2009, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
they poorly translate Lucifer which really means light bearer as Bright morning star. which is the poorest form of scholarship I have ever witnessed. the translators of the 1611AV were man enough to admit translating the Hebrew word would be wrong so they just transliterated it into English which is a good rule to follow when a translation wont work or will cause confusion. in this case it confuses the person of Jesus Christ Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. with Lucifer, the Devil, who is Satan.
Thanks for your comments, chette777. Yes, I'd say that was sloppy scholarship on their part! Satan is the brains behind that one, no doubt.

I wish I would have clearly stated that verses 14:8-10 describe the Devil bound for 1000 years after which time he will be loosed for a short while. Revelation 20:1-2 gives an account of the same event.

KJV
20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
  #5  
Old 05-24-2009, 07:44 AM
MPeak MPeak is offline
 
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Default Devil? What Devil?

I wonder if Christians today take the existence and influence of Satan seriously. With Jesus' pointed declaration on who Satan is, one would think we would make sure our bibles are accurate about it.

Jesus stated, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." - John 8:44

That sums it up pretty well. Satan is a murderer and a liar and lusts after death and deception. Where there is death and deception, we will find Satan.
  #6  
Old 05-24-2009, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPeak View Post
I wonder if Christians today take the existence and influence of Satan seriously. With Jesus' pointed declaration on who Satan is, one would think we would make sure our bibles are accurate about it.

Jesus stated, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." - John 8:44

That sums it up pretty well. Satan is a murderer and a liar and lusts after death and deception. Where there is death and deception, we will find Satan.
I don't know why many believers choose to ignore or downplay Satan's influence in the believer's life, in the church body and in the world. It’s not exactly a topic full of fun but it is a necessary one.

5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

We are to resist him stedfast in the faith so how do we do that if we don't understand all that God has taught us about Satan and his kingdom and if we neglect to put that teaching into action.

In the world, and unfortunately in the church, people are involved with the occult. Whether or not one's personal understanding of scripture allows that christians can be demon possessed or oppressed is not really relevant. Believers and unbelievers alike are receiving demons from the bizarre practices of charismatic churches like slaying in the spirit, and in occult practices outside of the church.

Believers disagree over whether or not a christian can be demon possessed or oppressed because he has the Holy Spirit residing in him. Isn't the important thing to help that brother or sister who appears to be afflicted in this way? Is it helpful to tell him/her that "we can't cast demons out of you because you are a christian and by our definition you can't have any demons". Or alternately, "You appear to be demonized so you can't be a born again christian". The second scenario is the best for the demonized christian because he can say 'OK, if you say I can't be a christian and be demonized let's pretend I'm not a Christian so you’ll help me cast those demons out of me!!! "

It's so ironic that the more doctrinally correct a group of believers is the less they are open to addressing these very real and widespread concerns. Anyone who comes out of occultism usually has no choice but to go to some charismatic ministry for help. How much help they usually receive is questionable. I think that much of the time they end up in a worse state than they began in.

This is just my own humble opinion, of course.
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Old 05-24-2009, 04:21 PM
Ed Edwards
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Greenbear: // Who do the scriptures name as the “morning star” and the “day star”? The King James Bible declares that Jesus is the "morning star" and the "day star". Many of the other translation declare in Isaiah 14:12 that Lucifer is the "morning star" and the "day star"//

I guess I missed something???

[quote=Greenbear apparently Isaiah 14:12]
New International Version

How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

New King James Version

How are you fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how are you cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations!

Greenbear// The King James Bible declares that Jesus is the "morning star" and the "day star". //

Greenbear// Many of the other translation declare in Isaiah 14:12 that Lucifer is the "morning star" and the "day star" //

But the KJV Translators Margin note says the same thing? Are you saying the KJV is wrong? I think the KJV is RIGHT!

My nKJV says in the Comentary for Isaiah 14:12 at 'Lucifer' that:

// Verses 12-14 evidently refer to Satan who, as prince of this world system (Jn 12:31, 14,30, 1611, see Reve 13:9, note) is the real though unseen ruler of the successive world powers, Tyre, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome etc (cp Ezek 28?:112-14. Lucifer, "Day Star." can be none other than Satan. //

This commentary was the First revision of Schofield's work. So Schofield carefully defines Lucifer as the 'morning star' and the 'day star'.

Unfortunately, Schofield wrote no part of the Sacred Scriptures, God's Holy Bible, God's inerrant Word, God's written Words, etc.

However I have been in churches that all had the same Schofield version of the Bible - the preacher would say something like "Turn to page 809, Isaiah 14:12, I will read through verse 14. ... Now look at footnote h, it says (what is seen above).

(example is fictional, church is real, I got married in that church in Aug 1963 and stole their piano player away to mother my children. I gave that Schofield KJV to my Sister-in-law in 2000, my wife & her Sister having died in 1999.)

As a parting shot across the bow: Read the original KJV here it says:

Isa 14:12 (KJV1611 Edition, e-sword.com)
How art thou fallen from heauen, O Lucifer*, sonne of the morning? how art thou cut downe to the ground, which didst weaken the nations?

Sacred Interperter's Margin Note:
* or O day-starre

Yes, IMHO the interperters notes are inerrant, sacred, profound, help one understand scripture, and only the Ignorant (not knowing) should avoid reading the Translater's footnotes (not the commentary footnotes).

This Margine note says that one could also translate that Hebrew term into 'day-starre'. This means an alternative KJV reading is:

How art thou fallen from heauen, O day-starre, sonne of the morning? how art thou cut downe to the ground, which didst weaken the nations?

and the translator's footnote means that the scripture (inerrant, sacred, profound, and preserved for the English speaking people of 1611) is just as good read either way.

So IMHO,
Quote:
New International Version, God's inerrant, perfect, word/words preserved for the 1970s+ English reader:

How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!
Is just as good as the KJV1611 Edition (God's inerrant, perfect, word/words preserved for the 17th century /1601-1700/)
And is just as good as the KJV1679 Edition (God's inerrant, perfect, word/words preserved for the 18th Century /1701-1800/).
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Old 05-24-2009, 05:24 PM
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Oh no.. not ol' Ed Edwards again, with his "every bible is the perfect word of God" line...
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Old 05-24-2009, 05:44 PM
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Ed, that's an interesting comment and I plan to do my first word study in the Greek and Hebrew in a long time. My understanding is that Lucifer=light bearer and morning star in Latin.

I am no Bible scholar nor intellectual. When I was a new christian I lived and breathed the Bible for 5 years or so and since then have for the most part neglected it for a number of years. This little piece I wrote is just an attempt to start studying God's word in depth again. So I thank you for taking your valuable time reading it and especially replying to it!

I honestly don't know anything about the interpreter's notes. I'm quite sure I would much rather read KJV interpreter's notes than the NIV interpreter's notes. Once I was convinced in my mind that the KJV is God's Word and the other versions were not, I never studied any other version again and I didn't continue studying the Bible version issue, either .

The way I see it is that God, not the translators, preserved His Word perfectly in the King James Bible. Their notes are runner's up, they didn't win the contest. There are probably hundreds of facts and points of view to consider in order to come to a fairly complete understanding of just this one little issue with this one piece of one verse; yet,why would God call Jesus and Lucifer/Satan by the same appellations?
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Old 05-24-2009, 06:19 PM
Ed Edwards
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
Oh no.. not ol' Ed Edwards again, with his "every bible is the perfect word of God" line...
Tee Hee

Your worse nightmare come true - a person who can prove the KJVs are inerrant, perfect, without flaw, preserved for their generation, etc.

And dangerous, I can teach Man's Logic, which is a subset of God's Logic (a very tiny subset, I might add); I can teach Salvation (since 1952) - 57 years; I can teach Bible (since 1957 - 52 years / 1975-1957 - the the KJV only for 18 years) I blow in-again-out-again-finigan salvation out of the water; I can blow the pre-tribulation rapture socks off LaHaye, Jeffery, and etc.; I was called to be a ON-LINE Bible apologist in June 1984 - 25 year anniversary coming up. Say, I aught to have a Big Anniversary party, except I don't remember the day. Actually I posted on my first post on a public bulletin board on day one and it was day 13 before I could post the second post?

[sorry, I do admit the Lord is still working on me about enhancing my humility]

What was every body else doing 25 years ago?

Second Ed's insight on the 'Lucifer' problem:

1. Even if 'day star' is the best translation here, it would be no problem. Obviously (Scofield is right) whoever is being talked about in Isaiah 14:12 is probably directly Nebo-..., the King of Babylon. But obviously Satan (a title, not a name), the Lead Devil (a title, not a name) is by type being mentioned here, indirectly, of course.

2. The 'day star', 'Morning Star', and 'Evening Star' can refer to the planet (not star) Venus in different manifestations. The 'Morning Star' designation is probably most meaningful here. The metaphor of Satan (by type) being a false Morning Start means that Satan is the false 'dawn' that precedes the true Dawn (we know now as Jesus). Jesus is compared by Peter and John is a metaphor for Jesus as the true 'predecessor' of the true sun: God Himself.

BTW 'day star' is NOT a star, it referrs to a planet. So the Hebrew Word for 'star' is not needed here at all.
 

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