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  #21  
Old 06-14-2009, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by premio53 View Post
The only problem isn't dying twice but the fact that Moses will already have a glorified body, either at the time of Christ's resurrection or at the time of the rapture. He could not die again in a glorified body. I go with Enoch and Elijah.
Hi!
1. I don't think anyone got a glorified body at the time of Christ's resurrection. Just like Lazarus being restored to life, so were the bodies at that time; they died again a natural death after being restored to life.
2. I don't think Moses and all the OT saints will be included at the Rapture of the Church, which is the Body of Christ. I see in Scripture that Job, Daniel, Martha, and even John, Peter, James, and Jude are looking forward to their "First Resurrection", which is going to happen at the Second Advent (Rev. 20:4-6).

Here's my opinion:
I believe Moses and Elijah will be restored to life and then die again in their natural bodies during the Tribulation period, and then resurrected. Of course, they will have to eat the tree of life during the Millennium to live forever.
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  #22  
Old 06-20-2009, 10:31 PM
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This is an interesting thread to me, thanks to the OP'er for posting it.

I think almost everyone agrees that one of the Two Witnesses will be Elijah. Most people suggest either Moses or Enoch as the second witness for the reasons stated above.

I am not settled on who the second witness is, but I think the Apostle John could also be a contender. People who argue in John's favor often site the following:

Joh 21:21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
Joh 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Joh 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Interesting to consider that a 2000 year old John is still around somewhere waiting for his time to die in the Trib!

Last edited by HowlerMonkey; 06-20-2009 at 10:32 PM. Reason: To add a thought
  #23  
Old 06-20-2009, 10:52 PM
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here is my view.

It is either two totally unknown Jewish believers in Christ who will be revealed during that time.

or it is Enoch of Gen5:24 and Elijah. Neither Enoch or Elijah died. And the scriptures tell us that it is appointed for every man to DIE ONCE then face judgement. Will Moses or John be risen to die again? Remember it can not violate Gods finished complete inspired inerrant preserved word of God.

also remember a glorified body can not face destruction or corruption it is free from that. the two witness have their head cut off that is destruction and they die. Corruption by Jewish standards starts as early as 3 1/2 to 4 days after death hence the reason God did not leave Christ in the grave and raised him on the third day and fulfill the scripture that his holy one would not see corruption. Also Rev 11:11 And AFTER three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. were their heads on their bodies when they stood up? We are not told? headless bodies standing up would answer why so many feared them.

Moses nor any righteous OT saint have glorified bodies yet. they have to face the GWT judgement of all the dead and enter the New Jerusalem to eat of the tree of life and drink of the rivers of the water of life. that is why we read for Israel that some are raised to everlasting glory and some to everlasting destruction in the last day. Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28, 29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Last edited by chette777; 06-20-2009 at 11:10 PM.
  #24  
Old 06-21-2009, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
here is my view.

It is either two totally unknown Jewish believers in Christ who will be revealed during that time.

or it is Enoch of Gen5:24 and Elijah. Neither Enoch or Elijah died. And the scriptures tell us that it is appointed for every man to DIE ONCE then face judgement. Will Moses or John be risen to die again? Remember it can not violate Gods finished complete inspired inerrant preserved word of God.

also remember a glorified body can not face destruction or corruption it is free from that. the two witness have their head cut off that is destruction and they die. Corruption by Jewish standards starts as early as 3 1/2 to 4 days after death hence the reason God did not leave Christ in the grave and raised him on the third day and fulfill the scripture that his holy one would not see corruption. Also Rev 11:11 And AFTER three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. were their heads on their bodies when they stood up? We are not told? headless bodies standing up would answer why so many feared them.

Moses nor any righteous OT saint have glorified bodies yet. they have to face the GWT judgement of all the dead and enter the New Jerusalem to eat of the tree of life and drink of the rivers of the water of life. that is why we read for Israel that some are raised to everlasting glory and some to everlasting destruction in the last day. Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28, 29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Chette, what really makes me marvel is all the people who read the Bible, study the Bible, and at the same time don't believe the Bible. The question me and God have for you is underlined below:

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Acts 26:8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

Why are you denying the power of God to raise from the dead? Because that's exactly what you do when you park at Hebrews 9 and say "...absolutely no way, the Bible says it..." Lazarus died twice. The young girl in Luke 8 died twice. Eutychius in Acts 20 died twice. "It's appointed unto men once to die..." and then Christ tells the Apostles and disciples:

Matt. 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Jesus told John's disciples:

Mt 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

All these people were dead and raised to life to die again. One death plus one death equals two deaths. Why did God write Hebrews 9:27 and then raise certain people to life, why is Elijah coming back to earth to die the first time and Moses the second time, since we've seen certain selected people died twice?

John 11:39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

Are you going to allow God to glorify himself or stick with a private interpretation?

Enoch cannot be the second witness for three reasons:

1. Enoch is a Gentile, not a Jew. Enoch did not receive the sign of the covenant(circumcision), there were no Jews until Abraham.
2. There are no records in Scripture Enoch ever performed any of the following:

Re 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Only two men fit this description: Elijah for the first, and Moses is the second witness. Read Exodus 7:17 to Exodus 12:33. Read the book of Revelation, read the plagues in Revelation and see that the plagues that will smite the earth are the same plagues that smote Egypt in Exodus 7-12.

3. Enoch cannot die. Not now or ever. Enoch already has a glorified body:

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There are people who will be alive at the Calling out of the Church from the world who will never die, just like Enoch. That is why I said that Enoch is a Bible type of those saints alive at the "Rapture". Enoch never died and never will, there are possibly people alive today who will never die. How is I Thess. 4:16 reconciled with Hebrews 9:27? Can you answer that question or are you going to blow me off to Ruckman and Harry Ironside's private interpretations as Bro. Parrish did?

Chette, the reason I have not been active in the forum for the last couple weeks is two reasons: The forum is becoming like FFF: Contentious name-callers is the first reason. The second reason is I used to spend a lot of time writing messages and responding to messages that are read, and not studied, and if studied not believed.

At one time I instructed a Sunday School Bible study of 16 kids aged 8-12 in Isaiah 28:9-13 and was asked, can we use a concordance? I said most definitely, that's why concordances were made. I gave them 3 questions to study: 1. What was the "star" of Bethlehem 2. Who is the anti-Christ? 3 Who are the Two Witnesses of Rev. 11? I got these answers:

1. An angel
2. Judas Iscariot
3. Moses and Elijah

Why is it children can get what grown adults either can't or won't?

Jud 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Brother, I can't come and read, study, and believe your Bible for you. You have to set the private interpretations of others and yourself aside before God will give you understanding in anything. Now, you are free(until Islam takes your country and mine)to believe what you wish.

Grace and peace to you brother Chette.

Tony

Last edited by tonybones2112; 06-21-2009 at 03:55 PM. Reason: typo
  #25  
Old 06-21-2009, 06:36 PM
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actually I was more interested in the 5 cherub that Satan was in charge of?

but as far as translated so Enoch would not see death according as stated in hebrews. does not indicate he received a glorified body. or that he will not return and see death at another time. It is clear the death he did not see was that of the flood that is in the context of Hebrews and Genesis 5. and yes I believe people will be translated just like Enoch (no details on how God took him in Genesis 5) or Elijah. so it is not an issue of a rapture either.

Also it is not an issue of God being able to raise the dead. I believe he has and will again. I never said I didn't believe God would raise the dead as you accused me of. as a matter of fact I stated that he would raise the dead and the two witnesses.

we are told in 1 Cor that only the body of Christ dead or alive will be raised into glorified bodies. this however may not be the case with Enoch or Elijah. and most definitely is not the case with any dead OT Saint. where in Scriptures does it say clearly that Enoch got a glorified body? how could you tie in Enoch to 1 Corinthians he never believed on Christ as Saviour and that Christ dies for his sins, nor is he a member of the Body of Christ. someone could take your statements as a private interpretation.

God is dealing with two types of people during the Great Tribulation mainly Israel but also the Gentile nations. both these are clear in scriptures. so what so difficult for God to use Enoch as a witness not just to Jews but to Gentiles? Why two witnesses? why no just one? 144,000 had already been running around witnessing too.

And so what the plagues are like the ones God preformed through Moses that doesn't mean it is Moses. God is the one who will be performing the feats through the two. it is not the man it is the God the men serve that does the plagues and feats.

the second death is not the type of Physical death we experience today. Death in the Lake of fire where Death and hell shall be cast into, tells us the second death is not like the first. you confuse them to make a person dying twice in a mortal fleshly fashion. someone might take that as a private interpretation.

sorry I don't read Ironside and as far as Ruckman I take his words with caution as well. I have found some of his stuff off as well. children give answers to what they have been taught. but those same children dont study to see what they are taught are true

but we were talking about the two witnesses. and you made mention about Satan being a supreme being and overlord of 5 cherubs. I was just wondering where in the Bible is says that about Satan?
  #26  
Old 06-21-2009, 08:07 PM
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Brother Chette, you might consider the fact that Elijah and Moses have been prophesied by Malachi and foreshadowed in Matthew to signal the Lord's Second Coming.
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Old 06-22-2009, 12:10 AM
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Malachi could of been prophesying of Elijah who is to come was John the Baptist and Jesus said so. Mt 11:7-14 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind? But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses. But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.


And as for Moses - a prophet like him was Jesus you see Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (Moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

I could not find in Malachi that he prophesied of Moses return. which verse is that?

Now it may be a two part prophecy of which we agree to that understanding. but does it have to be the actually Elijah and Moses? the previous verses state no it does not. I made my conclusion based on the scriptures that it was appointed for and to die once than face judgement. What Tbones forgot is that Christians are already dead in Christ and our Judgement is already done one the cross. so our rapture fits as we are all dead in Christ. 2Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
  #28  
Old 06-22-2009, 12:20 AM
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Bro. Chette,
The Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17) can also not be ignored. It is what Peter wrote about when he said we were "eyewitnesses of his majesty" (referring to the Second Coming). Peter, James, and John saw Moses and Elijah being with Christ, and Peter later wrote that this is a foresight of the Second Coming.

Also, Enoch never did one of the miracles done by any of the two witnesses.

The three major reasons why I'm convinced that the Two Witnesses had to be Moses and Elijah is because:
1. PROPHECY: OT prophets have been prophesying the coming of the two, or the prophets have associated the names of the two with the Second Coming. There is no prophecy of the scripture anywhere that ever indicates the return of Enoch.
2. TRANSFIGURATION: The Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17) is a preview of the Second Coming (according to Peter). Moses and Elijah, not Moses and Enoch, appeared.
3. REVELATION: In Revelation 11, the two witnesses can only be identified by what they did and by what happened to them. The miracles they did had been done by both Moses and Elijah. Enoch did no miracles whatsoever.

So far, that's all I have!
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Old 06-22-2009, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
actually I was more interested in the 5 cherub that Satan was in charge of?

but as far as translated so Enoch would not see death according as stated in hebrews. does not indicate he received a glorified body. or that he will not return and see death at another time. It is clear the death he did not see was that of the flood that is in the context of Hebrews and Genesis 5. and yes I believe people will be translated just like Enoch (no details on how God took him in Genesis 5) or Elijah. so it is not an issue of a rapture either.

Also it is not an issue of God being able to raise the dead. I believe he has and will again. I never said I didn't believe God would raise the dead as you accused me of. as a matter of fact I stated that he would raise the dead and the two witnesses.

we are told in 1 Cor that only the body of Christ dead or alive will be raised into glorified bodies. this however may not be the case with Enoch or Elijah. and most definitely is not the case with any dead OT Saint. where in Scriptures does it say clearly that Enoch got a glorified body? how could you tie in Enoch to 1 Corinthians he never believed on Christ as Saviour and that Christ dies for his sins, nor is he a member of the Body of Christ. someone could take your statements as a private interpretation.

God is dealing with two types of people during the Great Tribulation mainly Israel but also the Gentile nations. both these are clear in scriptures. so what so difficult for God to use Enoch as a witness not just to Jews but to Gentiles? Why two witnesses? why no just one? 144,000 had already been running around witnessing too.

And so what the plagues are like the ones God preformed through Moses that doesn't mean it is Moses. God is the one who will be performing the feats through the two. it is not the man it is the God the men serve that does the plagues and feats.

the second death is not the type of Physical death we experience today. Death in the Lake of fire where Death and hell shall be cast into, tells us the second death is not like the first. you confuse them to make a person dying twice in a mortal fleshly fashion. someone might take that as a private interpretation.

sorry I don't read Ironside and as far as Ruckman I take his words with caution as well. I have found some of his stuff off as well. children give answers to what they have been taught. but those same children dont study to see what they are taught are true

but we were talking about the two witnesses. and you made mention about Satan being a supreme being and overlord of 5 cherubs. I was just wondering where in the Bible is says that about Satan?
Brother, you'll pardon me again, but you still can't get out of the Book Of Chette. I've said this before, I'll continue to say it: You try and bend the Scriptures around your private interpretations, the Scriptures don't bend, they bend you. You're dead set on having a Burger King Bible and a Burger King Theology: Have It My Way. Nowhere does the Bible specifically say that Judas Iscariot is the Anti-Christ, the Beast Of The Bottomless Pit. You have to study two verses written by Paul and Jesus Christ to see it. Nowhere does the Bible specifically state that the water baptism of lev. 8 is the same water baptism of Matt. 3, Mark 16, Acts 2 and all the others, if you say it isn't is because you haven't studied the 412 verses that says it is the same baptism. Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say plain and open-faced in one verse, "the Lord Jesus Christ is God, The Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God" Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say "Every single verse of 36,000 verses in the Scriptures applies to the Lord Jesus Christ". They do, every period and comma if you study them. God chose to breath into and make alive a book divided into over 36,000 verses, not 36. You have to study to show yourself approved unto God, you have to be a workman, it takes labor and work to study the Scriptures. Solomon said in the OT that much study is wearying to the flesh, we still study the Scriptures. I'm not the only person who struggled and sweated with Tandi and her convoluted SDA theology, you gave her good answers yourself, all of us wrote her what amounts to a small book trying to get her into studying her Bible and not the Book Of Tandi; I typed so much to her my hand, which has nerve damage, was numb for a week. I had to type any messages afterwards with a pencil.

Brother, I'm not trying to mean. If you want to believe the two witnesses are Frank Sinatra and Ozzy Osborne, you're going to believe what you want to. Who the two witnesses are in Rev. 11 is not going to put one lost sinner into the Body of Christ, only the preaching of the cross will do that. And unless you apply Isaiah 28 to your Bible study the preaching of the cross is the only thing you're going to know.

You'll pardon me again, I say this with charity, the statement on Enoch and the Flood is probably the silliest thing I've read in this forum and equal only to the grasping at straws of one member who tried to say Babtist water baptism and the Spirit baptism of I Cor. 12:13 was "one baptism" becasue a husband and wife are "one flesh" in the Water Baptism thread, the same thing the Church of Christ teaches. Enoch cannot die in Rev. 11 without being "untranslated".What did Enoch do that caused God to give him such favor?

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Chette, your "interpretation" methods would say to me, oh, unless I see Enoch's scars I will not believe, all flesh is as grass, all have sinned, all our righteousness is a filthy rags, including Enoch's...Brother, you can't tell God what to do. You and I are going to die someday and be absent from the body and present with Him and I don;t want to die because I fear the manner of my death and I'm going to grab every AK-47 I can get my hands on to keep from dying, but it's God will and I have to do it. If the Scriptures say Lucifer was "the annointed cherub" out of five it means he was the chief cherub of those five and chief created being whether we want him to be or not.

Chette, you skimmed my message, you didn't read it. If you did read it, you didn't study it. If you did study it, you don't believe it. So why take the trouble to write this? Two reasons: You are my brother in Christ, and someone will read it and believe it and see you can't bend the Scriptures around your interpretations, the Scriptures bend you.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

Last edited by tonybones2112; 06-22-2009 at 12:40 AM. Reason: typo
  #30  
Old 06-22-2009, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
Malachi could of been prophesying of Elijah who is to come was John the Baptist and Jesus said so.
John the Baptist had the "spirit and power of Elijah" and he partially fulfilled Malachi's prophecy. Elijah appeared in Matthew 17 after John the Baptist died.

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Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
And as for Moses - a prophet like him was Jesus you see
But Moses appeared with Jesus in Matthew 17.

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Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
I could not find in Malachi that he prophesied of Moses return. which verse is that?
As I've said, there are two names associated with the Coming of Christ as prophesied by Malachi:
Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

The key is Matthew 17. Moses and Elijah appeared with Christ in the Mount of Transfiguration. According to Peter, what they witnessed with their eyes and heard with their ears was the Second Coming.
2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, WHEN we were with him in the holy mount.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
Now it may be a two part prophecy of which we agree to that understanding. but does it have to be the actually Elijah and Moses?
If it's a "two-part prophecy", I think it has to be actually Moses and Elijah.

I'm sure it can't be Enoch. The two witnesses were not required to not have experienced death. We identify them because of their miracles, not because they have never experienced death. To put a requirement that they not experience death before that has no strong Scriptural support. Their qualification, credential, identification, or whatever we call that is that they do those kinds of miracles, which all have been done by Moses and Elijah.

I think the key to the whole matter is these scriptures:
Malachi 4
Matthew 17
2 Peter 1
 

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