Doctrine Discussion about matters of the faith.

View Poll Results: Is water baptism Biblically correct for believers today?
Yes 29 85.29%
Yes
29 85.29%
No 5 14.71%
No
5 14.71%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #271  
Old 05-30-2009, 01:16 AM
chette777's Avatar
chette777 chette777 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Puerto Princesa City, Palawan Philippines
Posts: 1,431
Default

Tbones,

Remember there are three different churches in the NT. Paul persecuted a Jewish church that was believing Christ was the Messiah. and believed Christ was the King who was soon to come back and take over the Kingdom as promised to David.

After Paul's conversion he is sent to the Gentiles and the church comes out of it's latent form and becomes visible and Jew and Gentile are treated alike after the final rejection of Christ by the leaders and Stephan's stoning, and everyone is presented the gospel of grace faith in Christ atoning work of the cross never preached IN Acts 2 3 4 5 6 7 or 8, Paul calls it "my Gospel". Acts 8 took place at the or about the same time as Stephan's stoning. it is important to record this history as we see God fulfilling his word to go tot he gentiles at first it was to be with the Kingdom Gospel but the Jews weren't doing it yet Philip is called to do so. after the rejection by Israel Paul is saved and a whole new gospel goes to the world.

Last edited by chette777; 05-30-2009 at 01:40 AM.
The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software
  #272  
Old 05-30-2009, 09:28 AM
Winman Winman is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 464
Default

Chette

I completely disagree that the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus was not preached in the early chapters of Acts. Look at these scriptures in Acts 3.

Acts 3:11 And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering.
12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Nowhere in these verses is Peter preaching that Jesus would appear to take his kingdom. Peter was preaching the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and that through faith in him one could have their sins forgiven.

You may choose to overlook the obvious preaching of the Gospel here, but it is plain. And notice Peter does not even mention baptism.

Last edited by Winman; 05-30-2009 at 09:36 AM.
  #273  
Old 05-30-2009, 12:37 PM
George's Avatar
George George is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Broken Arrow, Oklahoma
Posts: 891
Default Re: "Is water baptism for today?"

Quote:
Greetings, Brother George. As always thank you for your thorough exposition of the word of God. God continues using you in my life as a "mentor" and "teacher". The "Master Teacher" is using you to minister to His body!

I need some clarification on post #188 under point #3 quoted in part above. Here is my question. I know the "law" was specifically written to the Hebrew/Israelite as you pointed out, but are all people "kept under the law" in a general sense?


Galatians 3:22-25 But the scripture hath concluded all [does this include both Hebrews/Israelites and Gentiles?] under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them [does this include both Hebrews/Israelites and Gentiles?] that believe. But before faith came, we [does this include both Hebrews/Israelites and Gentiles?] were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our [does this include both Hebrews/Israelites and Gentiles?] schoolmaster to bring us [does this include both Hebrews/Israelites and Gentiles?] unto Christ, that we [does this include both Hebrews/Israelites and Gentile?] might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we[does this include both Hebrews/Israelites and Gentiles?] are no longer under a schoolmaster.

If "we" and "them" and "our" and "us" and "all" includes the Gentiles also, then wouldn't Galatians 4:4-5 which says, "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons" also be a promise to include the Gentiles, not just the Hebrew/Israelite?
Aloha brother Forrest,

I didn’t forget you (or your questions). But I knew that it would take me some time and a whole lot of “effort” to answer your questions, so I have been procrastinating and “cogitating” in the meantime.

I believe the answers to your questions lay in identifying what is meant by “the law” and then identifying WHO is/was “under the law”; WHO is/was “NOT under the law”; and WHO is/was “without law”. {All according to the Scriptures – of course!}

First off, I hope that we can agree that “the law” mentioned by Paul is in reference to the “Law” given exclusively to the Jews (Hebrews/Israelites) by God, and would include ALL of “the law” and not just the Ten Commandments. If you differ with me on this, we will have to back up and establish (from the Scriptures) just exactly WHAT “the law” means in Galatians 3:22-25.

I believe that “the law” mentioned in Galatians 3:22-25is “the law” given by God to the Jews (Hebrews/Israelites) and that that “Law” was meant exclusively for the Jews (Hebrews/Israelites) only.

The following 10 verses of Scriptures from the New Testament are the only verses of Scripture in the Holy Bible with the phrase “under the law” in them. Interestingly enough – the phrase cannot be found in the Old Testament.

I believe the Bible is its own best Dictionary, so let’s “search the Scriptures” and see if we can come up with some answers to your most difficult questions.

Quote:
·Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
In the context, the “them who are under the law” is in reference to Jews[Romans 3:1-3]:

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?


Quote:
·Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
In the context, the “ye” of the “ye are not under the law” is in reference to blood bought, born again, Christians [Romans 6:3-6]

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

·
Quote:
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
In the context, the “we” of the “we are not under the law” is in reference to blood bought, born again, Christians [Romans 6:3-6] Christians are “under Grace” – NOT “the law”.

Quote:
·1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
In the context, the “them that are under the law” would have to be in reference to Jews– that is according to 1 Corinthians 9:9-13 & Romans 3:1-3.

1 Corinthians 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?


Quote:
Corinthians 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
In the context, the “them that are without law” would have to be in reference to unsaved Gentiles. IF – The (all) JEWS are “under the law”; and (all born agin) CHRISTIANS “are NOT under the law”; that only leaves UNSAVED GENTILES – which lines up with the Scriptural division of all of mankind: [1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:]

According to the testimony of the Scriptures:
1.The JEWS: “are under the law”.
2.The CHRISTIANS: “are NOT under the law, but under Grace”.
3.The GENTILES (Lost): “are without law”
·
Quote:
Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
The Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled “the law” and all prophecies concerning His “first Coming” [Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 1:1-80; Hebrews 1:1-4, Hebrews 2:5-18] – He was indeed “made under the law” – specifically “the law” given exclusively to the Jews.
·
Quote:
Galatians 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
The Lord came to redeem the children of Israel – and they REJECTED Him:

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

The “them” in Galatians must be in reference to the Jews [[Romans 3:1-3 & 1 Corinthians 9:9-13], and the “we” (in the context) would have to be Jews (Paul is referring to himself and his Jewish brethren)
Quote:
·Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
The ye would be in reference to those professing “Christians” in the churches of Galatia (Jews & Gentiles) who wanted to “observe” the Jewish Law, or at least a “part” of “the law”.
Quote:
Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
The ye would be in reference to genuine born again Christians, i.e. genuine, blood bought, born again sons of God; who (according to the Scriptures) are NOT under “the law” - For IFye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

I believe we have established the Scriptural “definition” of some of the words in the verses you cited.
Quote:
Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
The “all” would be both Jew and Gentile. The “them” would be genuine born again Christians.

So far, so good - we now come to the “hard part”. To understand these verses (Galatians 3:22-25) we must take into consideration all that the Apostle Paul has said in regards to this issue in Galatians Chapters 1 & 2, and up to this point in chapter 3. {“Context – we must always strive to keep Scriptural issues within “CONTEXT”} WHAT is going on in the churches of Galatia that prompted this Epistle?

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


Someone (either a Jewish believer or a Jew who is a “false brother” [Galatians 2:4] - or more probably several Jewish believers or Jewishfalse brethren” [Galatians 2:4]) is preaching “another gospel” to the churches of Galatia. Someone is trying to re-introduce the Jewish “Law” BACK INTO the “gospel of the grace of God” (i.e. Paul’s “Gospel”). What did Paul say?

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul didn’t “mince” words like so many of the brethren do today!

Read Galatians Chapter 2 - Paul had to even “confront” Peter [Galatians 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.] in front of the brethren [“. . . . I said unto Peter before them all . . . Galatians 2] because of the attempt (on the part of either Jewish believers or Jews who were “false brethren” [Galatians 2:4]) to bring the genuine born again Christians in the churches of Galatia BACK UNDER THE BONDAGE of “the law”.

Quote:
Galatians 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, {
We = JEWS}
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. {
we = JEWS}
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. {
we = JEWS}
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. {
I & myself= as a JEW}
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. {
I = as a JEW}
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. . {
I & me= as a JEW}
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. {
I = as a JEW}
We cannot separate what was occurring in the churches of Galatia (at that time) with what Paul has to say in these verses [Galatians 3:22-25], because these verses are being spoken in relation to that issue. {Today we call people who try to put Christians BACK UNDER “the law” – JUDAIZERS! And Paul said about such people: “let him be accursed”! My how times have changed – and so have Christians!}

Quote:
Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
The “all” would be both Jew and Gentile. The “them” would be genuine born again Christians.

Quote:
Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
I believe the “we” is in reference to JEWS {specifically in reference to the “Jews” (in the churches of Galatia - lost or saved) who were “preaching another gospel”. Remember: Paul was a Jew - of the Tribe of Benjamin.)

Quote:
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
I believe the “our” and the “we” is in reference to JEWS {specifically in reference to the “Jews” (in the churches of Galatia - lost or saved) who were “preaching another gospel”. Remember: Paul was a Jew - of the Tribe of Benjamin.)

Quote:
Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
I believe the “we” is in reference to JEWS {specifically in reference to the “Jews” (in the churches of Galatia - lost or saved) who were “preaching another gospel”. Remember: Paul was a Jew - of the Tribe of Benjamin.)

Remember - according to the previous Scriptures:

The Gentiles that were “Lost” were “without law”.
The Jews were “under the law”
The Saved, born again Christian is “NOT under the law”

Check out the word “ye” - (that so-called “archaic” pronoun that nearly all of the modern versions omit) which addresses ALL of the believers within the churches. Notice that “ye” is used in Galatians 1:6,9,& 13; but it is NOT used in Galatians Chapter 2 at all; and again “ye” is used in Galatians 3:1-4,7 (an address to ALL), but it is NOT used again until verse 26 – AFTER Paul’s discourse on “the law”.

I know this is a “hard saying”, but I can think of no other “Scriptural” exposition that can satisfactorily answer your questions within the “context” of the verses, and within the confines of the precepts and principles of “rightly dividing the word of truth”.

And let me say here and now, (for the benefit of all) that what I have presented here is NOT from some other man (or some other man’s commentaries). In all of the Threads and the Posts that I have made on this Forum, I have never (not once) gone to other men’s books & commentaries for the answers to spiritual issues. I may check out historical facts and data from men (i.e. my short “biography” on John Calvin), but when it comes to spiritual matters I do not consult other men, nor do I post other men’s opinions, and use them as my own.

Last edited by George; 05-30-2009 at 01:01 PM.
  #274  
Old 05-30-2009, 02:16 PM
Forrest's Avatar
Forrest Forrest is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 597
Default

Thanks for your diligent work on this, Brother George. You have presented some very thought provoking doctrine. And I can see how that fits. You know what I mean when I say this: often we have years of believing a certain thing and stand our ground to the end. As I grow older in person and in the Christ...I realize my "stupidity" and need to continually grow in the Christian life.

First, I do agree that the law is referring to "all" not just the Ten Commandments. However, here are some more questions if you don't mind. I understand the word "without" the law applying to the Gentiles. But if we {the Gentiles} are "without" the law, what does it matter if we are "not under" the law? What I mean is how could we be accountable for violating something we are not under? We are measured by the righteous standard of God's law, right?

What was the Gentile "under" if not the law? Of course, I've never believed the Gentile was/is "under the law" in the same way the Jew is under the law but I have always believed [perhaps erroneously] that we [Gentiles] are under the law as a schoolmaster/teacher which brought us to Christ.

If not the "Law" then what? What was the "schoolmaster" for us Gentiles that clearly revealed we were sinners [violators of God's perfect and holy standard] and must be born again of the Spirit in order to be justified? What was the schoolmaster that brought us to Christ?

You know, when I received Christ, Brother George, I knew I was a dirty rotten sinner without someone teaching me the laws of God? But are we [humankind] "under the law" in the sense of conscience?
  #275  
Old 05-30-2009, 07:05 PM
chette777's Avatar
chette777 chette777 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Puerto Princesa City, Palawan Philippines
Posts: 1,431
Default

winman,

I said it was taught but not for the application for the forgiveness of sins from Acts 3-8. it was taught as HISTORICAL facts to prove Jesus was the Promised Messiah for Israel and it was only taught to Israelite's and proselytes to Judaism.

You are still not seeing the truth of Acts three first if they believe what Peter is teaching about Christ being their prince the Holy one of promise (faith in the word preached by Peter not Christ finish work of the cross. NEVER NEVER NEVER does Peter even say that the death burial and resurrection are for the forgiveness of sins), then they are to secondly REPENT (a work), then they are to thirdly BE CONVERTED (a Work), and then they can have their sins blotted out (God's Grace or favor). The word THAT that is in "THAT your sins may be blotted out" it shows in clear English that if they didn't do the repenting and converting then no blotting out. There is a clear order of works based salvation here. none of Which we have to follow today to get saved. this is part of the Kingdom Gospel not the Gospel of Grace.

Failure to see the correct Gospel and to apply it would mean that some of you may not even be saved. and that would answer why it is you cant see the truth of the scriptures or rightly divide.

Last edited by chette777; 05-30-2009 at 07:13 PM.
  #276  
Old 05-30-2009, 07:26 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 464
Default

I disagree Chette, and I clearly highlighted in Acts 3:19 where Peter specifically mentions the forgiveness of sins.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Nowhere in this passage does Peter state that the kindgom would be established. Nowhere did Peter mention being baptized to receive the Holy Ghost.

And to repent is not a work, it is a change of mind or viewpoint. The Jews had crucified Jesus because they accused him of blasphemy, because he claimed to be the Son of God.

Mark 14:64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

But Peter told them that Jesus was indeed the Son of God as he had said.

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

So this is the viewpoint they needed to change. They needed to quit thinking Jesus was a blasphemer, and that he was indeed the Son of God.

And Peter said this forgiveness of sins was through faith in Jesus.

Acts 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Your problem is that you have a preconceived "dividing of the word" that is not there. Peter is clearly preaching the Gospel of Grace here.
  #277  
Old 05-30-2009, 07:34 PM
Bro. Parrish
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
Failure to see the correct Gospel and to apply it would mean that some of you may not even be saved. and that would answer why it is you cant see the truth of the scriptures or rightly divide.
LOL, oh brother... I guess what Chette is saying is that unless you "divide" EXACTLY like HE DOES you're not even saved?

Let's not forget brothers, there is a lot of WRONG DIVIDING going on out there today too... please notice the blind fold below... CHOP CHOP CHOP...


  #278  
Old 05-31-2009, 12:58 AM
chette777's Avatar
chette777 chette777 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Puerto Princesa City, Palawan Philippines
Posts: 1,431
Default

very funny BroP but guess what read Ruckman's commentary on Acts he agrees with what I have stated so don't be so quick to post his drawings until you have read His materials. I have Acts and I know what Ruckman believes and teaches
  #279  
Old 05-31-2009, 12:59 AM
chette777's Avatar
chette777 chette777 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Puerto Princesa City, Palawan Philippines
Posts: 1,431
Default

winman you are forgetting to keep in mind to whom he is speaking to and it aint me or you.
  #280  
Old 05-31-2009, 05:31 AM
Fredoheaven's Avatar
Fredoheaven Fredoheaven is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Philippines
Posts: 176
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
Failure to see the correct Gospel and to apply it would mean that some of you may not even be saved. and that would answer why it is you cant see the truth of the scriptures or rightly divide.
I post on this thread, and I may not offer to some a good thing and can be completely disregarded as you like. But the post above is I think some sort of a good judgement, only of a little arrogance.

1 Samuel 2:3 Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:46 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®, Copyright vBulletin Solutions Inc.

Website © AV1611.Com.
Posts represent only the opinions of users of this forum and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the webmaster.

Software for Believing Bible Study

 
Contact Us AV1611.Com