[greenbear]

Jassy, I have to make one more comment.

You said: "It isn't promised, until it gets REALLY BAD and there are almost no true Christians left! (A remnant)"

The rapture of the church can happen at any time. There is nothing that has to be accomplished first. The rapture could have happened in the first century anytime after 70 AD when the Temple was destroyed, the Kingdom offer withdrawn from Israel, and the revelation of the mystery of the gentile church had begun. There is no timing given for the rapture of the church. The prophetic clock stopped with the sacrifice of the Jewish Messiah, and the withdrawal of the Kingdom offer to Israel. It won't start ticking again until the Church is out of the picture and the Son of Perdition confirms a covenant with Israel. At that point the 7 year Tribulation, or Day of the Lord, begins.

Daniel
9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Timing and prophecy and numbering (census) have to do only with Israel. The gentile church is a mystery, as we know, not revealed until Paul. The gentile church is never numbered, never given any prophetic time line. We might guess it's about over because we might assume 7000 years from creation through the millennium. We may feel it is close because we see the signs increasing that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24 & Luke 21. Yet, Jesus said,

24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The second coming of Christ when he places His feet on the Mt. of Olives, when He comes to rule the earth for 1000 years can be timed once the anti-christ confirms the covenant with Israel and not before. That coming will happen 7 years after the anti-christ confirms the covenant with Israel, and 3 1/2 years after the abomination of desolation. Jesus says that no man knows the day and the hour, only the Father, and to "therefore be ye ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." Matt 24:44.

If you are interested, there are some straight-forward, short books on pre-millennialism and pre-tribulation rapture by John Walvoord that are really good, like "The Return of the Lord" and "The Rapture Question". Allen Beechick, "The Pre-Tribulation Rapture" is easy and excellent. Tim LaHaye's "No Fear of the Storm" is good, as well. You may have already read it but a "must read" (that is, I must read it again after all these years) is "Things That Differ" by C.R. Stam. I found "Delving Thru Daniel" by Noah Hutchings to be very basic, readable, and informative regarding Daniel's prophecies.

I hope you find any or all of this information helpful.

Your sister in Christ,

Jennifer

[Jassy]

Originally Posted by greenbear

Jassy, I have to make one more comment.

You said: "It isn't promised, until it gets REALLY BAD and there are almost no true Christians left! (A remnant)"

The rapture of the church can happen at any time. There is nothing that has to be accomplished first. The rapture could have happened in the first century anytime after 70 AD when the Temple was destroyed, the Kingdom offer withdrawn from Israel, and the revelation of the mystery of the gentile church had begun. There is no timing given for the rapture of the church. The prophetic clock stopped with the sacrifice of the Jewish Messiah, and the withdrawal of the Kingdom offer to Israel. It won't start ticking again until the Church is out of the picture and the Son of Perdition confirms a covenant with Israel. At that point the 7 year Tribulation, or Day of the Lord, begins.

Daniel
9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Timing and prophecy and numbering (census) have to do only with Israel. The gentile church is a mystery, as we know, not revealed until Paul. The gentile church is never numbered, never given any prophetic time line. We might guess it's about over because we might assume 7000 years from creation through the millennium. We may feel it is close because we see the signs increasing that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24 & Luke 21. Yet, Jesus said,

24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The second coming of Christ when he places His feet on the Mt. of Olives, when He comes to rule the earth for 1000 years can be timed once the anti-christ confirms the covenant with Israel and not before. That coming will happen 7 years after the anti-christ confirms the covenant with Israel, and 3 1/2 years after the abomination of desolation. Jesus says that no man knows the day and the hour, only the Father, and to "therefore be ye ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." Matt 24:44.

If you are interested, there are some straight-forward, short books on pre-millennialism and pre-tribulation rapture by John Walvoord that are really good, like "The Return of the Lord" and "The Rapture Question". Allen Beechick, "The Pre-Tribulation Rapture" is easy and excellent. Tim LaHaye's "No Fear of the Storm" is good, as well. You may have already read it but a "must read" (that is, I must read it again after all these years) is "Things That Differ" by C.R. Stam. I found "Delving Thru Daniel" by Noah Hutchings to be very basic, readable, and informative regarding Daniel's prophecies.

I hope you find any or all of this information helpful.

Your sister in Christ,

Jennifer

Hello Jennifer, my sister in Christ,

Thank you so much for the book recommendations. I will look them up. I appreciate that you took the time to list them and the Scriptures.

I have to address one thing. You said that the rapture of the Church could happen at any moment and that there is nothing that needs to be done first. I believe that what has to be done is:

"And this gospel of the the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Matthew 24:14)

So the last of the believers has to be gathered like hens under the wings of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. The only way that the last of these can be gathered is if they HEAR the Word of God and BELIEVE.

Romans 10
13 - "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
14 - "How then shall they call on him in whom they have no believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"
15 - "And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"
16 - "But they have not obeyed the gospel. For Esias saith, Lord who hath believed our report?"
17 - "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

So I think the preaching of the gospel EVERYWHERE has to come first. They have said for YEARS that that is close... I do not know. How do we evaluate that? GOD KNOWS!!!

Love in Christ,
Jassy

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by Jassy

Hello Jennifer, my sister in Christ,

Thank you so much for the book recommendations. I will look them up. I appreciate that you took the time to list them and the Scriptures.

I have to address one thing. You said that the rapture of the Church could happen at any moment and that there is nothing that needs to be done first. I believe that what has to be done is:

"And this gospel of the the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Matthew 24:14)

So the last of the believers has to be gathered like hens under the wings of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. The only way that the last of these can be gathered is if they HEAR the Word of God and BELIEVE.

Romans 10
13 - "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
14 - "How then shall they call on him in whom they have no believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"
15 - "And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"
16 - "But they have not obeyed the gospel. For Esias saith, Lord who hath believed our report?"
17 - "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

So I think the preaching of the gospel EVERYWHERE has to come first. They have said for YEARS that that is close... I do not know. How do we evaluate that? GOD KNOWS!!!

Love in Christ,
Jassy

Jassy, my sister in Christ,
If you read any one of my numerous recommendations I would choose "Things that Differ" by C R Stam.

I have to address one thing. You said that the rapture of the Church could happen at any moment and that there is nothing that needs to be done first. I believe that what has to be done is:

"And this gospel of the the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Matthew 24:14)

Can we agree to ask Brother George? We're keeping Brother George very busy these days!

Grace and Peace,

Jennifer

[George]

I have been asked to comment on three questions sisters’ greenbear and Jassy have been discussing.

Before I begin to comment, I would like to commend sisters Jassy & Jennifer for the spirit in which they have conducted their discussions. I would also like to thank them for being respectful towards all of the members of this Forum - including me.

I do not claim to be an old “sage”, nor have I ever made the assertion that I know everything there is to know about God’s Holy word. I’m just the “old crusty curmudgeon” of the AV1611 Bible Forums and I am highly honored by sisters Jassy’s & Jennifer’s request. Please keep in mind: I am NOT “infallible”, but for what it’s worth – here are my answers to their inquiries:

Question Number 1:

1. The eternal security of the believer?

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

There are too many verses to list here, but I have listed the majority of verses that I have found in regards to "Salvation" on my web page: http://www.thywordistruthkjv.com/ - under the section "Bible Lesson" <> "Verses on Salvation" http://www.freewebs.com/thywordis/SA...-%20Verses.htm

There are approximately 14 pages of verses indicating you can not lose salvation; and about 3 pages indicating that you can lose it. There are 10 verses indicating you can not lose your salvation for every verse that would indicate you can lose it - This is where “rightly dividing the word of truth” comes in [2 timothy 2:15].

The following Posts have much to say about “ETERNAL” Salvation:

What Would Happen If You Could “LOSE ” Your Salvation?:
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...82&postcount=1

The Biblical State of a New Testament saint:
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...8&postcount=10

"CALVINISM: Sound Doctrine?" <> Post # 89:
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...9&postcount=89

Various Posts on the same topic that may be of some interest:
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...5&postcount=51
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...1&postcount=17
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...1&postcount=23
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...4&postcount=20
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...7&postcount=52
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...8&postcount=13
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...03&postcount=3

Question Number 2:

2. The identity of the remnant, whether it is Israel or the church that has to endure to the end

There are only six verses in the Bible which speak of a “remnant”:

The word “remnant” has at least three different meanings in the Bible – depending where they are found, i.e. the “context”.

The term “endure to the end” occurs only twice in the Holy Bible – once in the Gospel of Matthew and once in the Gospel of Mark:

The “context” of those two verses indicates that they are referring to all those people (Jews and Gentiles) who are living during that period of time (the “Tribulation”, i.e. “the time of Jacob’s trouble” – Jeremiah 30:7)

I do not believe that Christians will go through the “Tribulation” (that’s another study), so there will be no Christians present here on the earth during the period of time spoken of in those two verses.

Question Number 3:

3. Whether or not there remains anything that must occur before the rapture of the church can take place.

I know of NOTHING (no prophecy or “event” that must take place) that is preventing the “rapture” of the Body of Christ” (I prefer the Biblical word – “Translated” or “Translation” – Hebrews 11:5). The only thing that I know of that has to take place BEFORE the nation of Israel BELIEVES on the Lord Jesus Christ is “the FULNESS of the Gentiles” must “come in”.

If I fully understood WHAT “the fullness of the Gentiles” means and WHEN the “fullness of the Gentiles be come in” will happen - I would be a “prophet”, which I obviously am NOT!

The Lord Jesus Christ could return at any time. I was saved in October of 1958 and have heard (and read) many a Bible preacher and teacher GUESS when our “translation” (the rapture) will take place. So far – NONE OF THEM has been right; it’s a “mystery” that no one has been able solve, so I won’t speculate as to the date, I just keep hoping it will be soon - REAL SOON!

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

[George]

To the AV1622 Bible Forums,

CORRECTION!

The following statement:

Question Number 2:

2. The identity of the remnant, whether it is Israel or the church that has to endure to the end

There are only six verses in the Bible which speak of a “remnant”:

is IN ERROR! I meant to say: "that there are only six verses in 'The New Testament' which speak of a “remnant” - NOT "in the (entire) Bible"!

Proof Positive - that I am NOT INFALLIBLE!