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  #11  
Old 02-14-2009, 03:38 PM
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Maybe, the teaching you have received must have taught you all people are judged at the great white throne judgement.
Not at all, the Holy Spirit didn't teach me that.

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OK how many resurrections are found in the NT?
You missed one of the clearest resurrections, which was the OT saints who came out of their graves after Christ arose in Matthew 27:52-53.

So that would make it 4 distinctly separate resurrections you believe in the NT apart from the 1st & 2nd resurrections in Revelation.
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So how can you say you only see two resurrections? one for the Saved and one for the Unsaved? Dead and Living? Living people are not resurrected anywhere in the Bible only dead people. 2Tim 2 STUDY
No, you misunderstand me. The 2 resurrections are not for the "Dead and Living", they are for the "Quick and the Dead". You need to study 2 Tim 4:1

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

You keep talking about "living saints" being resurrected, yet I havn't said that. The "quick" are those who are made alive in Christ spiritually (Ephesians 2:1-6), which include the OT saints who were all physically dead, the church age saints who are with the Lord now and will be resurrected soon, and the saints who die during the Trib. These 3 groups of saints make up the 1st resurrection, they happen in their own order, with Christ being the "firstfruits" according to the 1 Corithinans verses I have given you:

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: (1) Christ the firstfruits; (2) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 (3) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Brother, if you choose to dismiss this teaching, fine, but I'm sticking with it. On the one hand I'm weary of discussing these doctrines with you, knowing that you depart from the orthodox Bible believing views of the Book of Revelation, eg. denying that the Bride of Christ is the Church, etc. Yet on the other hand it's good for me to revisit what I believe and have it reinforced. So I thank you for that.
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  #12  
Old 02-15-2009, 03:44 AM
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Well the one in Matthew I did forget. Sorry. However I do not believe they were past souls from the Old testament like David or Solomon or Abraham. I really think they were recently deceased saints like Simeon the one who made the remarks concerning Jesus at his birth and the Prophetess. and some like that who had passed away during Jesus Earthly ministry. John the Baptist could have been one of them. there is no saying for Matthew only calls them saints and in this case they would be Jews only.

I have yet to see any resurrection old or new where living or Quick people are resurrected. quick people cannot be raised from the dead for they are not dead. the Judgement by Christ in 2Tim 4 is of the living and the dead . But I don't see a resurrection in that text. I do see the judgement of the dead in Rev 20, and the Judgement of the living (quick) in Rev 21.

The resurrection to the GWT judgement are clearly stated to be of the dead who were resurrected. the resurrection of the Martyred tribulational saints they were dead too. the ones in Matthew were dead, Lazarus was dead, the widows son was dead, the elders daughter was dead, the 2 witnesses in Revelation were dead. The Shulamite's son was dead, the man who was dropped onto the bones of Elisha' was dead. but I have yet to see a resurrection of living people anywhere in scripture.

Elijah was translated while living, Enoch was translated while livinig, the body of Christ who are alive will be translated while living, along side the resurrection of those in the Body of Christ which slept (were dead).

I am so glad that these doctrines do not have anything to do with our salvation.

do you hold the teaching that all men are saved the same in every dispensation? I was just wondering.

Brother Kiwi, please be graceful towards me, I only raised questions about things that could be beneficial to us all. I have not said anything about giving up on any sound doctrines. which by the way the word orthodox does not appear in any KJV bibles todate.

Escatalogy has lots of things yet to be revealed and as we study we will see things like the Bride in Revelation is a Jewish City (New Jerusalem) and the it is primarily for the Israel, seeing God is dealing with them by finishing their judgement. For the fullness of the Gentiles will be complete at the Gathering of the Saint to met Jesus in the clouds.

Last edited by chette777; 02-15-2009 at 04:09 AM.
  #13  
Old 02-15-2009, 11:56 PM
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Just for clarification I see in the new testament the term sleep or slept is only used in the New Testament for persons who had believed on Jesus Christ and had died. In Mt 27 the term slept is used. this is why I believe they were recently deceased saints not OT saints as you interpreted it.
  #14  
Old 02-16-2009, 01:08 AM
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Just for clarification I see in the new testament the term sleep or slept is only used in the New Testament for persons who had believed on Jesus Christ and had died. In Mt 27 the term slept is used. this is why I believe they were recently deceased saints not OT saints as you interpreted it.
Paul also uses the word "slept" to refer to the firstfruits who were raised with Christ in 1 Cori 15:20. Sleep is a reference to death in both old and new testaments:

Psalms 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

The term "slept with his fathers" occurs 36 times in the OT, and included were David and Solomon. "Slept" in Matt 27:52 doesn't have to mean 'those who believe on Jesus Christ', it could easily fit in with the OT saints who died prior to Christ coming, all the way back to Adam. Of course, MANY bodies of the saints which slept arose, not ALL, according to Matt 27:52, so there are still some to come up.

Also, whether they were recently deceased saints or not, they were still OT saints, because the NT didn't begin until Christ died! (Hebrews 9:16-17)

---------------------------------------------------

I think you have an erroneous belief saying there are multiple resurrections outside of the two in Revelation. Ultimately you are saying there are bulk resurrections of humanity that take place before the FIRST resurrection. It doesn't make sense. The only way scripture fits is if the FIRST resurrection is in installments (1 Corinthians 15:23-24), as I've explained. The FIRST resurrection is exactly that, THE FIRST ONE, there are none before it! Teaching otherwise is following the same path as Hymenaeus and Philetus in 2 Timothy:

2 Timothy 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
  #15  
Old 02-16-2009, 06:33 AM
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I stand corrected concerning the word sleep and slept. My mistake I had my power Bible set for NT search only. once set for whole Bible those terms arose in the search.

As for my erroneous beliefs. I am not "following the same path as Hymenaeus and Philetus in 2 Timothy" for I have not taught in anyway shape or form that the resurrection is already past. for I have said no such thing.

I look and study not just sections of scripture but the WORDS themselves (2Peter 3:1,2 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: and in 1Cor15:23 you miss the clear words that do not mean many but only one.

1Cor15:23, 24 you do notice it says "Christ the firstfruits" not "the firstfruits of Christ" or "Christ's firstfruits" . It is "Christ the firstfruits" it is Jesus Christ who has risen and become the firstfruits according to verse 20. Paul clarifies in vs 23 Christ the first fruits is the first and then those of his AT his coming (in the clouds complete with a resurrection of the dead in Christ and those which remain).

Paul is not speaking of Matthew 27 saints in 1Corinthians 15:23, 24 nor is Paul speaking of those martyred siants risen in the first resurrection of Rev 20. Paul speaks of you, I and all Christians saints which are dead and alive when the Lord comes in the clouds to receive us to himself. that is in the context.

for you to make "Christ the firstfruits" the saints in Matthew the OT saint and the first resurrection martyrs would be your private interpretation or that of someone you read or follow. but not the Holy Ghost's interpretation.

Last edited by chette777; 02-16-2009 at 06:45 AM.
 

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