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  #21  
Old 11-27-2008, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MC1171611 View Post
Again, Eden in Ezekiel is a Garden, and Eden in Genesis 2 is a location.

Things that are different are not the same.
Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Ezekiel 31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

Ezekiel 36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
Eden is a location--with a garden--called the garden of Eden--which is called the garden of God--because God planted it eastward in Eden.
Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
The garden God planted eastward in Eden is called the "garden of Eden" "the garden of God" and is located in Eden.

What scripture(s) do you use to explain your view? Perhaps that will help me understand what you are saying. Things that are the same are the same.

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Again, Eden in Ezekiel is a Garden, and Eden in Genesis 2 is a location. Things that are different are not the same.
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  #22  
Old 11-27-2008, 08:53 PM
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"Thou hast been in Eden, the garden of God..."

^^ Eden IS a garden in Ezekiel.

"God planted a garden eastward in Eden..."

^^ Eden is a place where God planted a Garden.

First Eden = Garden

Second Eden = Location where God created a Garden.

*bangs head against wall*
  #23  
Old 11-28-2008, 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted by MC1171611 View Post
"Thou hast been in Eden, the garden of God..."

^^ Eden IS a garden in Ezekiel.

"God planted a garden eastward in Eden..."

^^ Eden is a place where God planted a Garden.

First Eden = Garden

Second Eden = Location where God created a Garden.

*bangs head against wall*
I am honestly attempting to simply take the Holy Scriptures at, as you say, face value. Please address the verses I have referenced and expound upon them with your own understanding and ideas. If you disagree with me, so be it, I am not offended at all. But please explain WHY you disagree by convincing me with SCRIPTURE. I have been persuaded (by Brother Tim) to openly change my mind on this Forum on a previous matter. I am open to the TRUTH. I will use scripture to support why I believe there were NOT two gardens. Here is my understanding of the word of God.
Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
First, we understand that Eden is a location. The words “…in Eden” confirm this fact.

Second, we understand that “eastward” identifies the location in which God planted a garden. A garden the HE planted in Eden. Since GOD planted the GARDEN in Eden, do you agree that it can be referred to as the GARDEN OF GOD and that it's also appropriately referred to as THE GARDEN OF EDEN?
Genesis 2:10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
Two verses later, we once again read that Eden is a location. The words “And a river went out of Eden” confirm this fact.

In my opinion, we can logically conclude that the garden which was watered by the river that went out of Eden, was the garden God planted eastward in Eden.

Thus far, the first Eden is a location, and has a garden, specifically planted by GOD located eastward.
Genesis 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
Obviously, at this point it is called the “Garden of Eden” because it is a garden that GOD planted eastward in Eden.
Genesis 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
We know the story. SATAN had deceived Eve. “Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?” (Genesis 3:1). “And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression” (1 Timothy 2:14). “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ” (2 Corinthians 11:3). Even though it was Eve who was deceived and beguiled by the serpent, Adam also disobeyed God. “…and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat” (Genesis 3:6). In eating the forbidden fruit, he disobeyed God, and God “…sent him forth from the garden of Eden….”

Based on the word of God in those referenced verses, I conclude that Satan was in Eden, specifically eastward in Eden, in the garden God had planted, where he then tempted Eve. Adam, Eve, and Satan were all in the garden which GOD planted; which we can reasonable call the garden of GOD. The garden HE planted and walked in. “And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden” (Genesis 3:8).
Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Based on the above scriptures recorded in Genesis, I conclude that the words “in Eden the garden of God” found in Ezekiel 28:13 refer to where Satan had been when he tempted Eve. The same garden God had planted, eastward in Eden. Three chapters later, we receive more Biblical support.
Ezekiel 31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.
I believe this is the same Eden and the same garden. The words “…that were in the garden of God” help me arrive at this logical conclusion. The word of God clearly says, “…all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God” in Ezekiel 31:9. By comparing scripture with scripture, I conclude this is the same EDEN and GARDEN referred to in Genesis and earlier in Ezekiel.
Ezekiel 36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
I believe, in light of the other words of God, the words “…like the garden of Eden” refers to the same garden when God took Adam “…and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it” (Genesis 2:15).

Based on these SCRIPTURES, I conclude that this is the same EDEN and GARDEN in Genesis and Ezekiel. But as I said in my opening paragraph, I can be persuaded to change my view with scripture to support a differing view. I think this is reasonable.
  #24  
Old 11-28-2008, 03:42 AM
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I am going to end this post in three words. First, I will explain a few things. Then, I will ask you a question, in three words. Answer it yourself.

Neither of you believe in evolution. Both of you believe what you believe to be the truth. Both of you are saved. Both of you believe the King James Bible is God's word. Both of you believe in God's plan for the ages. Both of you believe in salvation through faith alone. Both of you believe in the literal blood of Christ, the millennial Kingdom, the tribulation, the great white throne judgment.

Both of you believe Satan is a created being who had some authority in God's original sinless creation. Both of you believe Satan fell of his own free will. Both of you believe he will be judged and sent to an eternity in hellfire. Both of you believe that Satan is the great DECIEVER. Both of you believe that satan is the accuser of the BRETHREN.

BOTH OF YOU BELIEVE IN PERSONAL SOUL LIBERTY!

Vince believes Satan fell before Genesis 1:2 and after Genesis 1:1 - not lending any credence to evolution, but basing this on his understanding of the scripture as the Holy Spirit has given him light.
Forrest believes Satan fell sometime during Genesis 2 and 3 - not lending any evidence to evolution, but basing this on his understanding of the scripture, as the Holy Spirit has given him light.

So did Satan fall before or after the original creation.

Considering the above, BRETHREN, and considering that Satan is probably joyous over Christians debating when that wicked one originally sinned.

DOES IT MATTER?



Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
  #25  
Old 11-28-2008, 08:43 AM
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Bro. Forrest, let me preface my response by showing you how I believe the Scriptures. As Bro. Ruckman has stressed so many times in his preaching and his books, the smallest words in the Bible are oftentimes the most important when it comes to Biblical truth. Words such as "like" and "as" usually trip up people that want to create their own doctrine from the Bible or twist something to defend their beliefs. I'm not saying you do this, I'm simply explaining how extremely careful I am when it comes to the words of the Scriptures.

For instance:

Gal. 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (emphasis mine)

I srongly and emphatically believe that to mean that we are justified by Jesus's faith; also, the "gift" of Ephesians 2:8-9 is faith, not Salvation, if the sentence is dissected properly. Most teach that we have faith and by that we accept Jesus Christ as our saviour, but based on the Scriptures, I believe that even faith itself is a gift, based on the word "of" in Gal. 2:16: "the faith of Jesus Christ."

That being said, I'll try to be more specific as to my belief on Eden.

As you established in the first part of your last post, Eden in Genesis 2 is clearly a Region on the newly created (or renovated) earth. Through the beginning of Genesis 2, it is made clear that Eden is a region where God placed a Garden: Gen. 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. (emphasis mine)

Therefore, being very technical about it (as I am prone to do), I specifically say "the Garden IN Eden," not "the Garden OF Eden." While the Scriptures do call it that later in Genesis 2, it is specifically a name only, as its location and whatnot has already been established earlier in the chapter.

Another point of interest is : Gen. 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. Here there is no garden referenced; Eden is simply a region close to where Cain began to dwell.

Now, in Ezekiel, God is speaking through Ezekiel to the "king of Tyrus," while though he was a real king and I'm sure God was really sending him a message, there's no way He was talking to a mere mortal king in this chapter. Like Isaiah's address to the king of Babylon (Is. 14), the king of Tyrus here is obviously a reference to Satan.

Ezek. 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; (emphasis mine)

According to the words of this verse, the Eden this passage is referring to is NOT a region, but a specific Garden. We've already established that Genesis 2 is speaking clearly about a region on the earth, but this reference here is speaking not of a region, but of a garden.

In conclusion, I believe it is quite clear that Genesis 2 speaks of a Region named Eden that includes a garden, and Ezekiel 28 speaks of a Garden named Eden, not a Region. By extrapolation, I believe the Eden referred to in Ezekiel 28 as being the original earth: God created it for the angels to inhabit, which they did until Lucifer's rebellion. After that, it was destroyed and then recreated by God in Genesis 1:3, where he put man in dominion over His new creation.

I hope that's a little clearer.
  #26  
Old 11-28-2008, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MC1171611 View Post
I hope that's a little clearer.
Yes, your position on what you believe the scriptures to say is clearer. Thanks for taking the time to explain your understanding.

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Words such as "like" and "as" usually trip up people that want to create their own doctrine from the Bible or twist something to defend their beliefs. I'm not saying you do this, I'm simply explaining how extremely careful I am when it comes to the words of the Scriptures.
I agree.

Quote:
As Bro. Ruckman has stressed so many times in his preaching and his books, the smallest words in the Bible are oftentimes the most important when it comes to Biblical truth.
I agree.

Quote:
Another point of interest is : Gen. 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. Here there is no garden referenced; Eden is simply a region close to where Cain began to dwell.
I agree. The words "east of Eden" (I'm sure you would agree), are not "God planted a garden eastward in Eden." The words "east of" are different than "eastward in". Your exactly right, obviously, there is no mention of a "garden" because Cain was not eastward in Eden where the garden was, he was on the east of Eden.

Since this does indeed clarify that Eden is a specific "location," I think the word "in" is relevant. That's the very thing which has led me to form my particular opinion.
Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God...
As a side note, I'm reminded of two other passages that use different "words" that could create some different doctrines if not rightly divided.
Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Anyway, it's been good. I hope you know I am not "angrily" or "childishly" sitting here debating with you, like a little immature brat who is trying to prove his point and get his way. This type of subject matter is not for the "carnal" believer, that's for sure. Like you, I'm simply "searching the scriptures" with a fellow believer, who as Brother Luke pointed out, have a lot in common. "...they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so" (Acts 17:11). THIS MATTERS TO ME!

I have benefited from this, Brother Vince. In my Christian circles throughout the years, I had not been exposed to the "Gap Theory." And, it has been rare to find others who will even discuss deeper subjects like this one. It's been edifying for me in that it has led me to search and meditate on God's word. That can't be a bad thing.
  #27  
Old 11-28-2008, 07:19 PM
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Bro. Forrest, I must apologize for my sarcastic spirit and bad attitude a few times throughout this thread. I admit I'm too quick to jump to the conclusion that someone is less straightforward than they appear on the surface. Though I completely eschew using Greek or Hebrew unless dealing with Bible correctors, your definition of a word via Hebrew didn't merit the response I gave.

I'm going to draw a little picture to illustrate the geography of Genesis 2-4; bear with me here, I don't intend to be sarcastic.

Geography of Eden (Genesis 1-6)

Maybe I'm totally not understanding where you're coming from; sometimes I tend to miss the most obvious things.
  #28  
Old 11-29-2008, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by MC1171611 View Post
Bro. Forrest, I must apologize for my sarcastic spirit and bad attitude a few times throughout this thread. I admit I'm too quick to jump to the conclusion that someone is less straightforward than they appear on the surface. Though I completely eschew using Greek or Hebrew unless dealing with Bible correctors, your definition of a word via Hebrew didn't merit the response I gave.

I'm going to draw a little picture to illustrate the geography of Genesis 2-4; bear with me here, I don't intend to be sarcastic.

Geography of Eden (Genesis 1-6)

Maybe I'm totally not understanding where you're coming from; sometimes I tend to miss the most obvious things.
That's okay. If we were face-to-face I'm sure we would get along just fine. I'm real laid back and very hard to offend. I may be wrong on the way I'm reading this verse.
Genesis 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
Here's my thinking. If the land of Nod was outside the region of Eden, as it is in your picture, it would read like this:

"...and dwelt in the land of Nod, east of Eden."

Again, I may be in error, but I think the two small words "on the" place Nod inside the region of Eden.

It's like saying: "I live in the land of Houston, on the east of Texas" which still places me in Texas, or "I live in the land of Houston, east of Texas" which places me outside of the Texas region, anywhere from Louisiana to Florida. Perhaps it's a southern dialect thing on my part. Anyway, that's what I'm thinking. This particular issue is not really that important to me.
  #29  
Old 11-29-2008, 01:37 PM
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Perhaps "on the east of" could be more like "on the border" or some such. But thinking about it, there probably wasn't a wall or a line in the dirt or a sign stating "You Are Entering the Land of Eden."
  #30  
Old 11-29-2008, 01:52 PM
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Perhaps "on the east of" could be more like "on the border" or some such. But thinking about it, there probably wasn't a wall or a line in the dirt or a sign stating "You Are Entering the Land of Eden."
"Pan Theology"--it will all pan out in the end.
 

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