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  #41  
Old 04-27-2009, 11:03 PM
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Well the last few verse of Hebrew are a salute of sorts but lack Paul's name. the verse of Timotheus does not shed to much light as Timothy was not incarcerated with Paul. as the verse suggests. the verse of being in bonds well reflects the life of Paul. the many words employed by Paul are a great way to expose who may have written.

What I have discovered is when rightly dividing this book you find that most of it fits in well with the dispensation to come the Great tribulation. there are I must admit lots of references that are applicable to the church age saints today. I have settled not to place this book solely in the dispensation of Tribulation, but rather I place it over lapping church age and tribulation. This book fits in well as a transitional book from church age to tribulation.

because of such it would be of no wonder Paul would not sign this letter. While some claim it is a sermon and not a letter overlook the verse in the closing salutation that state it is a letter.

Keeping the book transitional in nature it answers any and all questions of contradictions and false teaching that many groups have gotten from Hebrews. apply what applies today to the church and apply what applies to Israel in the tribulation and there is no question of it accuracy and authenticity no matter who penned the book
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  #42  
Old 04-28-2009, 05:41 AM
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Shalom Brethren,

I must say I am surprised and delighted that I seem to be accepted as a sister here, even though you know we have doctrinal differences. I very much appreciate those of you who are praying for my atheist friend as well. I am convinced that the LORD is still working in his heart and life....and yes, it is interesting that he still reads the Bible every day. In fact, he still lists the Bible as his favorite book. I do think he is double minded, with his intellect trying to rule over his spiritual mind. It is like he wants to believe, but his brain won’t let him. He is highly intellectually gifted, has a photographic memory, amazing vocabulary and writing skills, can read pages in seconds, and is like a walking Biblical and theological encyclopedia. Former Bible Quiz champion by the way. No wonder the Enemy has targeted him for destruction. But when he returns....and my confidence is growing that he WILL return, all things will work together for good and he will be quite the erudite apologist for the Biblical faith against Dawkins, etc. AMEN! LET IT BE SO!

As I have been considering all of your helpful comments and looking for internal evidences, and reading the 13th chapter of Hebrews this morning, I am leaning towards thinking that Paul did indeed write the “epistle to the Hebrews”........which is chapter 13. (Interesting that Hebrews has 13 chapters, and Paul is thought of as the 13th apostle.)

The token in every epistle is Paul’s handwriting, not necessarily his name....anyone could forge that. Those who received this epistle would have recognized Paul’s handwriting....and as George mentioned, that familiar word “conscience” would be a clue.

Yet Paul says, “And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation: for I have written a letter unto you in few words.” (13:22).

There is nothing “few words” about the Book of Hebrews!

I believe chapters 1-12 are the “Exhortation” that Paul is recommending, but did not himself write. Another intrinsic clue in Chapter 13 is verse 18: “Pray for us....” Who is the “us.” There is an associate with him who wrote this epistle! Because of persecution, anonymity was prudent, but the recipients would have recognized the author. I wonder if this was written to the Jewish believers in Jerusalem and if the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) is the rulership (hegemony) mentioned in verses 7, 17, and 24.

Hmm...in re-reading Acts 15, I wonder if Silas could be the author of the exhortation? Any thoughts?
  #43  
Old 04-28-2009, 12:05 PM
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Shalom Brethren,

I must say I am surprised and delighted that I seem to be accepted as a sister here, even though you know we have doctrinal differences. I very much appreciate those of you who are praying for my atheist friend as well. I am convinced that the LORD is still working in his heart and life....and yes, it is interesting that he still reads the Bible every day. In fact, he still lists the Bible as his favorite book. I do think he is double minded, with his intellect trying to rule over his spiritual mind. It is like he wants to believe, but his brain won’t let him. He is highly intellectually gifted, has a photographic memory, amazing vocabulary and writing skills, can read pages in seconds, and is like a walking Biblical and theological encyclopedia. Former Bible Quiz champion by the way. No wonder the Enemy has targeted him for destruction. But when he returns....and my confidence is growing that he WILL return, all things will work together for good and he will be quite the erudite apologist for the Biblical faith against Dawkins, etc. AMEN! LET IT BE SO!

As I have been considering all of your helpful comments and looking for internal evidences, and reading the 13th chapter of Hebrews this morning, I am leaning towards thinking that Paul did indeed write the “epistle to the Hebrews”........which is chapter 13. (Interesting that Hebrews has 13 chapters, and Paul is thought of as the 13th apostle.)

The token in every epistle is Paul’s handwriting, not necessarily his name....anyone could forge that. Those who received this epistle would have recognized Paul’s handwriting....and as George mentioned, that familiar word “conscience” would be a clue.

Yet Paul says, “And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation: for I have written a letter unto you in few words.” (13:22).

There is nothing “few words” about the Book of Hebrews!

I believe chapters 1-12 are the “Exhortation” that Paul is recommending, but did not himself write. Another intrinsic clue in Chapter 13 is verse 18: “Pray for us....” Who is the “us.” There is an associate with him who wrote this epistle! Because of persecution, anonymity was prudent, but the recipients would have recognized the author. I wonder if this was written to the Jewish believers in Jerusalem and if the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) is the rulership (hegemony) mentioned in verses 7, 17, and 24.

Hmm...in re-reading Acts 15, I wonder if Silas could be the author of the exhortation? Any thoughts?
Tandi, we are delighted you accept us as brothers and sisters despite our doctrinal differences also. As I told you, I speak plain and to the point, sometimes, in bleak text over a computer, that can be taken as being condescending and curt. I am not being either. I'm just telling it like it is.

The Scripture I ask you to prayerfully consider regarding our differences are God's words to Tandi, not verses pulled by me to throw at you like rocks or meant to insult you or judge you. I have faith that in the future you will remember these verses as describing you at this point, and that we in this forum, not just I, are here to guide you. You came out of Catholicism becasue you saw it was wrong, and the first place you started reading probably was Genesis 1:1. The first place you should have started was Romans.

My differences with you are that you are putting yourself back under the Law. Jesus Chrost is the end of the Law. The Law was a schoolmaster to bring the Jews to christ You are a Gentile, the Law was never imposed on you or I. The Scriptures below apply to you:

Ro 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Ac 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Apollos was mighty in the Scriptures when he came to Ephesus.

He was mighty wrong too.

He preached the kingdom of heaven doctrine of John The Baptist, the doctrine taught during Christ's earth;y ministry(Romans 15:8). He was taken and shown the revelation of the mystery of the Body of Christ given to Paul only, and then his ministry really kicked into gear.

Apollos preached the baptism of John and was entirely Scriptural, but completely out of place of the timeline in the unfolding of the progressive gospel of the grace of God. You are entirely Scriptural in your sayings of "keeping Torah". You are only 2000 years too late and teaching it to the wrong group of people(Gentiles). You are as Apollos, your information is "mighty" but incomplete. Now, I have written these things unto you in a calm voice and for you to consider as time goes by. The Messianic/SDA teaching of putting us back under the Law is another gospel and those who preach it are cursed. That is the sum of my differences with you.

Regarding your friend, his intellectual gifts and talents have done nothing for him and been of no effect. He is ever learning and cannot come to the knowledge of the truth:

Ro 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

We are having a discussion in another thread over the doctrine of imputed faith, the verse above is one of the foundation Scriptures for that teaching. God gave your friend a measure of faith but when his own started to fail, then God yanks His faith right out from under us. As long as he insists on Sophistic Gnostic arguments, he'll die in a state of mystery. Faith and belief cannot be separted any more than your heart from your body. Until his belief and faith returns, God will show him nothing. When I contend with an error of Dr. Ruckman's, his hardline cultic followers, the pro-abortion/pro-UFO/born-Baptist-and die-Baptist followers are always quick to point out Dr. Ruckman's 180 IQ, and I have to truthfully reply that I am then at a disadvantage, as mine is only measured and recorded as being 170. Intellectual gifts mean nothing, faith and belief is everything. I'm sure your friend and I could debate and shred each other's arguments. What is left? A whole lot of the confetti of shredded arguments with no knowledge, no understanding, no edification.

Faith and belief are everything.

Silas is a likely candidate but I see Apollos being more knowledgable of Israel, the one with the most knowledge of course is Paul, and I maintain and teach he wrote Hebrews, but I won't slash tires to defend it

Grace and peace to you sister and again, please receive this message in the spirit it was given: Not shredding your beliefs, but that all can come to a knowledge of the truth, the Scriptural truth. I'm working on a resonse to your other message.

Tony
  #44  
Old 04-28-2009, 03:43 PM
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Fredoheaven Fredoheaven is offline
 
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Good day Tandi,

I am a new here in this forum and I am seeking a more thorough explanation from the brethren in regards to your post. Actually, bro Tony et.al. had done a great deal in regards to your querry. Interesingly, I just wonder if your fundamental/evangelical friend who later became athiest was actually an imaginery one. My drawn conclusion to this is because of:

1. He could not be an Athiest as supposed by merely putting doubt in the Book of Hebrews. The book of Hebrews especially Hebrews 11 is about faith chapter and considering him as a living Biblical and theological encyclopedia, have resorted in faith when there was in his mind to a question of God" Word. ". He'd rather put faith over his own intellect. Further he could have read Hebrews 12:2 to always "looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith...". Again,for sure, he must have firstly question the Book of Esther where there was no found the word "God" in its entirety.

2.He could not be an Apostate as supposed by merely beleiving evolution. Born apostates will die as an apostate. The case of William Miller as an apostate is to be considered. There was an instance that when before his death acknowledged that he was indeed wrong in his date setting of Christ Return, although the Millirites continue on this belief and later became SDA movement. In case of your friend, he could not be an apostate but may be a backslidden one. We can not really tell if he is an apostate unless he will renounced them on his deathbed. But still, I am casting doubts to the reality of your friend.

Hope you would not misundertand me as I am seeking more on the answers of the Hebrews but without a doubt, The Book of Hebrews is God's Holy Word.




Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Last edited by Fredoheaven; 04-28-2009 at 03:53 PM.
  #45  
Old 04-28-2009, 06:09 PM
Tandi
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Hello Tony,

I like your direct approach. No problem there. : )

You assume too much about my beliefs, however. I have said very little here about what I believe.....and if you’ve been to my blog, you see it is pretty eclectic.

My Bible reading actually started with the Gospel of Matthew in a little red Gideon’s New Testament my daughter brought home from fifth grade (KJV). I had just been born again and had no idea where to go from there. I read that “little red Bible” from cover to cover in three days. I immediately identified with Paul and his Damascus Road experience. I also read Psalms and Proverbs which were included in this Bible. About nine months later I bought a full Bible (KJV) and have been reading through the Bible each year since the mid 1980’s using the Bible Pathway devotional guide.

http://biblepathway.org/English/InDepthDailyDev.html

I have attended Baptist and other kinds of churches over the years. We were a pioneering Gothard ATIA home schooling family in the 1980’s, which is probably where I first got my appreciation for the commandments of God as relevant and applicable to my life. I do not consider myself Messianic, Adventist, Jewish, Seventh-Day Baptist, or any other label.....though I have gleaned from many sources, including these. I like to think I just believe what I read in the Bible....but we all could say that and yet disagree with one another on many levels. Yet essentially, our core beliefs are probably pretty similar. Most Christians do not realize they are keeping many of the commandments of God already, as they are written on a true believer’s heart. A true believer wants to please God and walk in His ways.

I will resist debating your points about the Law.....and get back to our Hebrews discussion. I am glad you see Silas as a possibility.There is not much written about him from what I can find online. But he seems to be in the right places at the right times, according to the Biblical accounts of his travels and companions. Regardless of who wrote Hebrews, we need to resolve at least some of the supposed discrepancies. I would love to report back to my Hebrews-doubting intellectual friends that my Hebrews-believing KJV intellectual friends were able to solve some of the problem passages! : )

Where is Steve Avery these days by the way? I would like his input.
  #46  
Old 04-28-2009, 10:44 PM
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Shalom Brethren,

I must say I am surprised and delighted that I seem to be accepted as a sister here, even though you know we have doctrinal differences.
What are these doctrinal differences you speak of...
  #47  
Old 04-29-2009, 12:35 AM
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Hello Tony,

I like your direct approach. No problem there. : )

You assume too much about my beliefs, however. I have said very little here about what I believe.....and if you’ve been to my blog, you see it is pretty eclectic.

My Bible reading actually started with the Gospel of Matthew in a little red Gideon’s New Testament my daughter brought home from fifth grade (KJV). I had just been born again and had no idea where to go from there. I read that “little red Bible” from cover to cover in three days. I immediately identified with Paul and his Damascus Road experience. I also read Psalms and Proverbs which were included in this Bible. About nine months later I bought a full Bible (KJV) and have been reading through the Bible each year since the mid 1980’s using the Bible Pathway devotional guide.

http://biblepathway.org/English/InDepthDailyDev.html

I have attended Baptist and other kinds of churches over the years. We were a pioneering Gothard ATIA home schooling family in the 1980’s, which is probably where I first got my appreciation for the commandments of God as relevant and applicable to my life. I do not consider myself Messianic, Adventist, Jewish, Seventh-Day Baptist, or any other label.....though I have gleaned from many sources, including these. I like to think I just believe what I read in the Bible....but we all could say that and yet disagree with one another on many levels. Yet essentially, our core beliefs are probably pretty similar. Most Christians do not realize they are keeping many of the commandments of God already, as they are written on a true believer’s heart. A true believer wants to please God and walk in His ways.

I will resist debating your points about the Law.....and get back to our Hebrews discussion. I am glad you see Silas as a possibility.There is not much written about him from what I can find online. But he seems to be in the right places at the right times, according to the Biblical accounts of his travels and companions. Regardless of who wrote Hebrews, we need to resolve at least some of the supposed discrepancies. I would love to report back to my Hebrews-doubting intellectual friends that my Hebrews-believing KJV intellectual friends were able to solve some of the problem passages! : )

Where is Steve Avery these days by the way? I would like his input.
Tandi, Steve is still moderator, I assume, of the WHICH VERSION yahoo group, with Will Kinney, I saw a few messages here by him, but have not spoken to him lately. I don't think they remember me from the bloody battles on yahoo with the likes of robycop3 several years ago on the bible version thing.

I don't know anything about this Gothard home schooling, if they are mixing law and grace then they need to be shut down and undergo a major renovation. Plain speech and direct approach.

Tandi, does you friend believe Jesus Christ was raised from the dead? I think we could answer all the supposed "discrepancies" and "contradictions"(Dr. Ruckman has already gone far in doing that)in Hebrews or the whole Bible and he would still doubt. Unless and until your friend goes back to the First Clause, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, I think you're wasting your time with him. More plain speech and direct approach. Let's look at a few passages of Scripture:

Mt 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
Mr 16:11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
Mr 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

You intellectual friend does not have an intellectual problem, he has a heart problem. He has hardened it. His problem is not his speed reading, his IQ, or his knowledge, he has a heart problem, and not cardio-vascular. I'm not chopping a man who is not here to defend himself, he is not under attack. But read the Scripture above, that is my source for understanding the situation. Now, let's quote the bumper sticker, What Would Jesus Do? Jesus would do plain speech and direct approach. Has anyone told your friend he has a heart problem? Read above again, that's what the Scripture hath concluded. You can give him Dr. Ruckman's book on Bible "contradictions", until his mind is Closed For Repairs and his heart changes, as I said, he'll die with all this discrepancy a mystery to him. Again, Dr. Bones has diagnosed another one through the Scriptures, his mind is not his problem, it's his heart. Plain speech, direct approach. Those who want to answer his objections here, I am in no way impeaching their work, it's going to do no good till his heart changes.

I accept you as a sister in Christ and that you are just as saved as I am. But until you resolve this mixing of law and grace you are going to be in a fog. Take your time, there is no hurry, at least not with me. But there is no debate on the law and grace, that debate was settled at Calvary and with Paul 2000 years ago. At your leisure study these Scriptures:

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

You and I do not have any righteousness in and of ourselves, we have God's righteousness, imputed to us.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

If we must keep the sabbath, which one? There are several. There is not an SDA on this earth or the whole gang can judge me, nor a follower of Herbert Armstrong or his son, Garner Ted.

Ro 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Tandi, the Jews could not follow the Law unto righteousness, what liar has told Tandi that she can?

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.


Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

I don't want you to think I'm trying to knock you out of your chair, this is not a boxing match, neither is it a debate. I, and others here, will guide you through this, if you want to know the truth.

Tandi, I am at odds with those in my own movement, the Grace Believers. Many of them are so dispensational, some have told me that Paul never wrote to none but Gentiles. Let's look at Scripture below and see who Paul wrote to:

Ac 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

The reason I told you that Romans should be your starting point is that not only do we need to rightly divide the Scriptures, we have to rightly divide Paul:

Doctrine: Romans
Reproof: I & II Corinthians
Correction: Galatians-Colossians
Instruction in righteousness: I Thessalonians-Philemon

Tandi, you came into this forum and threw out a little seed: Questions on the book of Hebrews. You never know what is gonna sprout, eh sister?

I want you to take these messages from me and as the days pass study the Scripture I gave you. Read the passages in context, read the passages around them, because I'll explode before I quote Scripture out of context. You're not under any pressure, and no one is trying to bulldoze you or debate you.

Grace and peace to you, sister Tandi.

Tony
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
  #48  
Old 04-29-2009, 04:41 AM
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Tony, I don't know where to begin in answering you. It would not be a productive discussion. It would take too long to explain where I am coming from and how I am not "mixing" law and grace, etc. When you do not believe Jesus' words in the Sermon on the Mount are for us today, we share no common ground to discuss doctrine.

Paul does not contradict Jesus! Rightly dividing means rightly interpreting so that the Scriptures are in harmony with one another. This is the life work of my friend who has the questions about Hebrews, harmonizing the Scriptures. He has been able to harmonize Paul's epistles, but not Hebrews (as yet).

I hope I am not confusing people with references to my TWO friends. One is a believer, the other is struggling with doubt. God loves them both and is working in their lives! Some of the comments here have been quite judgmental.

I wish we could discuss the specific questions I brought up in Hebrews on this thread. There are plenty of other threads to discuss doctrinal disputes, salvation, etc.
  #49  
Old 04-29-2009, 08:52 AM
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Paul does not contradict Jesus! Rightly dividing means rightly interpreting so that the Scriptures are in harmony with one another.
We are never told to "harmonize" Scripture. We are told to divide it. The two are quite different. The very definitions of the words show us that one precludes the other.

There are indeed harmonies in Scripture, but where Scripture is not "in harmony" we are to divide it, not to try to make it harmonic. Some of the most unconvincing apologetic work comes from trying to force harmony where there should be division.

Quote:
Some of the comments here have been quite judgmental.

I wish we could discuss the specific questions I brought up in Hebrews on this thread. There are plenty of other threads to discuss doctrinal disputes, salvation, etc.
Your questions lead to doctrinal discussions. One cannot discuss anything about the book of Hebrews without getting into doctrine.
  #50  
Old 04-29-2009, 08:56 AM
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When you do not believe Jesus' words in the Sermon on the Mount are for us today, we share no common ground to discuss doctrine.
What should our common ground be? Shouldn't it be Scripture itself?
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
 

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