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  #41  
Old 04-10-2009, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Fredoheaven View Post
It seems that wicked dead to be jugded at the Great White Throne will not be a literal heavens door, hence in Revelation 20:11 states that "...there was not found a place for them". The dead, small and great and the Bible speaks of them as standing before God is not to be intrepreted as they were all parading at the very ground of the third heaven or God's abode. The scripture is silent as to where they will judge, maybe an empty space not being mention in the bible. By the way can you or anyone help in telling me where was God before He created the heaven and the earth?
I study that out and I too agree there is two things to consider during the time the old earth and heavens flee and the new heaven appears in chapter 21. is that the dead who are being judged will be judge in a place God fore ordained but he does not tell us. seeing the first and second heaven are gone the whole of heaven (like the original of Gen1:1) will be only the heaven of God. so the Great White Throne will appear and they will stand before it and be judged.

But during this same period (which could be all of about 45 minutes in a 24/7 TQ which will be gone by this time) where are all the Living Jews, and Gentiles? they are either watching the judgement of the dead from the sidelines or they are held in a different place until the New heaven and Earth (just like Gen 1:1, not heavens and earth like Gen 2:4). then they will be placed on the new earth and the new Jerusalem comes down those who have the right to enter in (the Lambs book of life allows whoever who is found therein to enter) and those who are alive will live out side. and they must keep the commandments of Christ to Enter in Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
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  #42  
Old 04-11-2009, 09:43 AM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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Fredoheaven said

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It seems that wicked dead to be jugded at the Great White Throne will not be a literal heavens door, hence in Revelation 20:11 states that "...there was not found a place for them". The dead, small and great and the Bible speaks of them as standing before God is not to be intrepreted as they were all parading at the very ground of the third heaven or God's abode. The scripture is silent as to where they will judge, maybe an empty space not being mention in the bible. By the way can you or anyone help in telling me where was God before He created the heaven and the earth?
Rev 20:11 is speaking of the earth and the heaven, not the wicked dead. It is the earth and heaven that has fled away and there is no place found for them. But the great white throne remains, and the very next verse shows the dead standing before God who is seated on the throne. Verse 11 does tell us that God is seated on the great white throne, but it does not mention the dead whatsoever, only the earth and the heaven.


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
  #43  
Old 04-11-2009, 10:18 AM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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Fredoheaven also said

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In Ezek. 12 refers to Lucifer when he was not yet cast off. There was all there "full of wisdom and beauty" etc. "Now we see a change. The Bible says God will cast Satan out, but does not specify when. " I guess what the Lord God cast was not Satan, it was the annointed cherub referring to Lucifer. The name of Satan in the Bible never refers to the one decsribe in Ezek. 12, though I believe that Lucifer was named later as Satan by virtue of his casting down.
Now you are arguing that Lucifer is not Satan? First, Lucifer is mentioned in Isa 14:12, not Ezekiel.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

The name Lucifer has been associated with Satan for centuries. I am amazed how you and Chette disregard any scripture that contradicts this gap theory.

And notice how verse Isa 14:15 says "yet thou shalt" be brought down to hell, which shows this is going to be a future event.

This matches Rev 12 perfectly.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 12 is future. And there is no mistaking that the scripture is clearly speaking of the Devil and Satan. He is also called the old serpent which identifies him as the serpent in the Garden of Eden in Gen 3.

Satan's fall is also described in Rev. 9.

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

How do we know this is Satan?, from Rev 9:11

Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Locusts do not have a king as ants have a queen. But these dreadful locusts have a king identified as Abaddon and Apollyon.

The definition of Abaddon is:

Abaddon = "destruction"

1) ruin

2) destruction

3) the place of destruction

4) the name of the angel-prince of the infernal regions, the minister of death and the author of havoc on the earth

The definition of Apollyon is:

Apollyon = "Destroyer"

1) the angel of the bottomless pit, the Destroyer

Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Here we see Lucifer made the world as a wilderness and destroyed the cities thereof. So Lucifer clearly qualifies as a destroyer. It says he made the world as a wilderness, no man has ever destroyed the world yet. So he is a great destroyer. This matches up with Rev 9 easily.

Last edited by Winman; 04-11-2009 at 10:31 AM.
  #44  
Old 04-11-2009, 02:28 PM
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Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Here we see Lucifer made the world as a wilderness and destroyed the cities thereof. So Lucifer clearly qualifies as a destroyer. It says he made the world as a wilderness, no man has ever destroyed the world yet. So he is a great destroyer. This matches up with Rev 9 easily.[/QUOTE]

Because of pride and rebellion Lucifer was overthrown, he was fallen as we are told in Isah. 14:12-14. The Bible clearly points to us the name "Lucifer" in this particular text. Now upon consideration, the bible describes him later in v.16 as "...the man who made the earth to tremble...shake kingdoms..who made the world like a wilderness and destroyed its cities..."

"Now you are arguing that Lucifer is not Satan? First, Lucifer is mentioned in Isa 14:12, not Ezekiel. "


I think, Lucifer became Satan and I am not going to argue that Lucifer is not Satan.Well, in Ezek, I am not sure that it was Satan who was mention. What the bible says: It was the annointed cherub, full of wisdom and beauty etc., until iniquity was found in him which seems to me that these descriptions fitted Lucifer(who later became Satan) for it was him, as the angel of God that iniquity was found in him. In the New Testament, our Lord now describes him as the accuser of the brethren and the arch deceiver.
As regards to the Gap theory, I do believe in my heart in "What the Bible says" is true. I do not subsribes to any theoritical view of man or merely opinions of man.

Thanks Winman, somehow I benifitted most in this forum or thread and I am glad to know your wittiness and wisdom and of others. I've been learning...

Jude 25
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  #45  
Old 04-11-2009, 03:24 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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Fredoheaven

Thank you. This is not about being right, it is about what the Bible really says. I can tell you, I want to know the truth come what may. And to me this is why knowing the King James Bible is the infallible Word of God is so important. Our very souls depend on God's Word. I cannot believe that a perfect God would not leave us a perfect Bible. God does not make errors or mistakes. And God is loving and not willing that any should perish. So, He is going to leave us a perfect and certain Word that we may find Him. I don't understand people who do not believe in an infallible Bible. What is their concept of God? Would He leave us without a sure way to find Him?

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Back to Ezekiel, I believe this also speaks of Satan.

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

We know that this is speaking of an angel "annointed cherub". We also know this angel was in the Garden of Eden. So surely this must be "that old serpent" as shown in Rev 12.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Notice that everything goes from past tense to future tense after the word "sinned" in vs. 16. The next word is "therefore" which is future.

So, it is in the future that Satan will be cast out of the mountain of God. It is future that Satan he will be destroyed from the midst of the stones of fire. It is future he will be cast to the ground. It is future that God will bring forth a fire from the midst of him.

This fits with all other scripture. Now we can easily explain Satan accusing Job, Joshua, and the brethren (Rev 12:10) before God. Satan will be cast out, but he has not been cast out yet.

When Jesus said he saw Satan fall as lightining, it must have been future prophesy.

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

The Lord is telling his disciples that through him we have victory over Satan.

Luke 11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. 21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: 22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

Last edited by Winman; 04-11-2009 at 03:42 PM.
  #46  
Old 04-11-2009, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winman View Post
Fredoheaven

Thank you. This is not about being right, it is about what the Bible really says. I can tell you, I want to know the truth come what may. And to me this is why knowing the King James Bible is the infallible Word of God is so important. Our very souls depend on God's Word. I cannot believe that a perfect God would not leave us a perfect Bible. God does not make errors or mistakes. And God is loving and not willing that any should perish. So, He is going to leave us a perfect and certain Word that we may find Him. I don't understand people who do not believe in an infallible Bible. What is their concept of God? Would He leave us without a sure way to find Him?

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Back to Ezekiel, I believe this also speaks of Satan.

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

We know that this is speaking of an angel "annointed cherub". We also know this angel was in the Garden of Eden. So surely this must be "that old serpent" as shown in Rev 12.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Notice that everything goes from past tense to future tense after the word "sinned" in vs. 16. The next word is "therefore" which is future.

So, it is in the future that Satan will be cast out of the mountain of God. It is future that Satan he will be destroyed from the midst of the stones of fire. It is future he will be cast to the ground. It is future that God will bring forth a fire from the midst of him.

This fits with all other scripture. Now we can easily explain Satan accusing Job, Joshua, and the brethren (Rev 12:10) before God. Satan will be cast out, but he has not been cast out yet.

When Jesus said he saw Satan fall as lightining, it must have been future prophesy.

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

The Lord is telling his disciples that through him we have victory over Satan.

Luke 11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. 21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: 22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
In Ezekiel, i think the key to unlock here to rightly divide the word is to note the word "till" or the phrase "till inquity was found". The Bible says the annointed cherub in its best description had the capacity to do sin and indeed he sinned as in v 16 which cemented what Prophet Isaiah stated in chapter 14. Lucifer later became the old serpent, which is called the Devil and Satan. The logic is if the old serpent whom the Bible called him as the Devil and Satan, then the Devil or Satan was created by God. This seems impossible and is not supported in the scriptures. It was the annointed cherub or Lucifer does point to us that described in Ezekiel. Pardoned if I have been repetitious about this but that's what I know and believe. You also seems to point that Satan was created by God when in fact the Bible had only called him so.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Jude 25
  #47  
Old 04-11-2009, 05:14 PM
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chette777 chette777 is offline
 
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Winman, we are amazed you disregard the scriptures that support a Gap theory. go easy buddy don't be so quick to condemn your view is full of flaws too you know.

rev is all future not me or Fred said it did not. it seems you misunderstood something Fred said. so go back and re read his statement.

I am amazed you can get the meaning of destroyer and Abaddon right but when it comes to "without Form and void" you miss the cross reference and the meaning that contradicts that the original earth in Gen 1:1 was created in a imperfect desolate and empty form and had to be perfected and completed in six days.

Last edited by chette777; 04-11-2009 at 05:43 PM.
  #48  
Old 04-11-2009, 05:16 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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Quote:
The logic is if the old serpent whom the Bible called him as the Devil and Satan, then the Devil or Satan was created by God. This seems impossible and is not supported in the scriptures.
Are you saying that it is impossible for God to create Satan? And not supported in the scriptures?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Bible clearly teaches that all things were made by Jesus, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Bible says Lucifer was perfect in his ways from the day he was created. But Lucifer (Satan) had free will just as you and I do. Lucifer chose to sin of his own free will.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

What? do you think that Satan is from everlasting as God is?

And saying that someone who disagrees with you is not rightly dividing the word does not make it so. Have you ever considered the possibility that it is you who is in error?

Last edited by Winman; 04-11-2009 at 05:30 PM.
  #49  
Old 04-11-2009, 05:59 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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Chette

If you were to take a new believer in Christ who had not been taught, and let them read Genesis chapter 1, they would NEVER come up with your Gap Theory. They would read it just as it says, God created the earth, but it was covered in water. It was void of life, it had no features. This is what void and without form means. Then when God caused the dry land to appear it had form. When God created life it was no longer void. Simple.

I have looked up void and without form, and the #1 primary definition is

"FORMLESSNESS"

We are never going to agree. But you have ZERO scriptures to support your view. You are always talking about the 24/7TQ, I've yet to see that in my Bible.

Satan or Lucifer was perfect when first created. And he walked in the Garden of Eden. Sometime after that he chose of his own free will to rebel against God, and God is going to cast him out of heaven in the future. I have shown numerous scriptures to support my belief. Nothing I have shown contradicts scripture as your theory does.
  #50  
Old 04-11-2009, 06:07 PM
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I believe Fredoheaven asked where God was before creation. I can't really answer that, but the Bible is clear God is from everlasting before creation.

Proverbs 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Notice verse 27 says God was even before the heavens (plural) were prepared.
 

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