[Greektim]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

in reply to your post above;

Bro Tim, look at the CONTEXT of Job 38...

4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

Brother, can you answer that question? Where were the MEN?
Man was not yet created when God laid the foundations of the earth brother.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and
all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Tim, if the sons of God are not angels, then who are they, JEWS?
Come on brother...

I knew we had something in common Bro. Parish. I agree w/ you.

[Brother Tim]

Well, it's hopeless now!
Next we'll have cats and dogs sleeping together. {Spirit dogs of course.}

[kevinvw]

Or maybe the dogly line of Seth!?

Sorry, bad joke.

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by kevinvw

Or maybe the dogly line of Seth!?

Sorry, bad joke.

Belly laugh!

[Brother Tim]

Okay, let us do a little review:

Who are the "sons of God"?

In the NT, the phrase appears six times. In every case, it is identifying the saints, never heavenly or spirit non-human beings.

In the OT there are three locations where the phrase is used.
First, in Genesis 6, which we are discussing. There, these beings (no number given, only plural -sons-) produce offspring with multiple "daughters of men" who then become notable men of their era. Nothing more is said that narrows down the identities of these beings in the passage. The word "angel" does not appear as a link, while the title "angel" does appear elsewhere in Genesis.

Second, in the beginning two chapters of Job, "sons of God" are in the presence of the LORD when satan lays down his challenge. The obvious observation is that this takes place in Heaven during Job's lifetime. Again, nothing further is given to describe these beings. Again, the word "angel" does not appear as a link. "Angels" does appear later in Job 4.

Third, in Job 38, the LORD uses the phrase "sons of God" to identify heavenly beings who shouted for joy during the beginning stages of earth's creation. Again, the term "angel" was absent.

The OT "sons of God" have been assumed variously to be:

[1] Heavenly angelic or non-angelic beings (in Job 1-2 & 38)
[2] The spirits/souls of early OT saints (Job 1-2 in particular)
[3] Angelic beings, more specifically, fallen angels (Genesis 6 in particular)
[4] Decendents of Seth (Genesis 6 in particular)

In its broadest sense, "sons of God" could describe any or all created beings, spiritual or physical. I will agree that Job 38 was not speaking of humans (duh). These are created heavenly beings of some type.

-------------
Let us assume for a moment that those who support the "fallen angel" definition for Genesis 6 are right. I have these questions:

[1] When did the fallen angels fall? Most place this either prior to the six-day creation of earth, or during that time. Genesis 6 takes place much later. If 2 Peter and Jude are referring to this event, why did God allow them free reign for so long? On the other hand, if these passages refer to the event of rebellion, then these angels were already judged.

[2] How could this be limited in time scope or individuals participating? Are you claiming that all of the fallen angels chose to mate with human women all during the same pre-flood time period? If there were any who did not participate, then they were not under the 2 Peter/Jude judgment and therefore could have at a later point in time done the same thing.

[3] There appears to be two groups of thought: [a] The angels took on fleshly form in every aspect and thus the intercourse was possible. Then why would the offspring be any different than other human children? [b] The angels had some kind of created innate ability to impregnate women. Some have even compared this to Jesus' conception (which nauseates me!) This would require that God designed these spirit beings with spiritual sperm. Why?? Remember what Jesus said about the angels and marriage.

[4] IF giants were the resultant offspring (which as I have posted earlier, the sentence structure does not support), then this same behavior was present after the flood and throughout history, for there have been giants reported and documented. Does this not call into question the Jude judgment?

-----------

Finally, Bro. Parrish and his new buddy, GT, mock this venerable old saint by asking,

Tim, if the sons of God are not angels, then who are they, JEWS?

Again, I say: Not every creature in Heaven is an angel! Angels are ONE form of heavenly being.

------------
Enough for now...

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Finally, Bro. Parrish and his new buddy, GT, mock this venerable old saint by asking,

Quote:
Tim, if the sons of God are not angels, then who are they, JEWS?

Again, I say: Not every creature in Heaven is an angel! Angels are ONE form of heavenly being...

Come on buddy, you still haven't answered the simple question. Who shouted for joy in heaven when God laid the foundations of the earth?

Here's a hint:

Tim, by my count there are approximately 15 or more verses in the book of Revelation ALONE that mention angels shouting, sounding, vocalizing or crying with loud voices in heaven. I don't see any other forms of heavenly being doing this, do you?

10 "Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth." Luke 15:10

[Brother Tim]

From Bro. Parrish:

Come on buddy, you still haven't answered the simple question. Who shouted for joy in heaven when God laid the foundations of the earth?

From my last post:

In its broadest sense, "sons of God" could describe any or all created beings, spiritual or physical. I will agree that Job 38 was not speaking of humans (duh). These are created heavenly beings of some type.

That's as close to a factual answer as you can get. All else is speculation.

[Brother Tim]

Bro. Parrish, Are you using the term "angel" to describe all the heavenly hosts? Are the four beasts of the Revelation a type of angel? They participate in the praises. In fact, they are in the center of the congregation doing the praising. The Scriptures distinguish them from angels.

Revelation 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Revelation 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Revelation 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Revelation 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Okay, let us do a little review:

Who are the "sons of God"?

In the NT, the phrase appears six times. In every case, it is identifying the saints, never heavenly or spirit non-human beings.

In the OT there are three locations where the phrase is used.
First, in Genesis 6, which we are discussing. There, these beings (no number given, only plural -sons-) produce offspring with multiple "daughters of men" who then become notable men of their era. Nothing more is said that narrows down the identities of these beings in the passage. The word "angel" does not appear as a link, while the title "angel" does appear elsewhere in Genesis.

Second, in the beginning two chapters of Job, "sons of God" are in the presence of the LORD when satan lays down his challenge. The obvious observation is that this takes place in Heaven during Job's lifetime. Again, nothing further is given to describe these beings. Again, the word "angel" does not appear as a link. "Angels" does appear later in Job 4.

Third, in Job 38, the LORD uses the phrase "sons of God" to identify heavenly beings who shouted for joy during the beginning stages of earth's creation. Again, the term "angel" was absent.

The OT "sons of God" have been assumed variously to be:

[1] Heavenly angelic or non-angelic beings (in Job 1-2 & 38)
[2] The spirits/souls of early OT saints (Job 1-2 in particular)
[3] Angelic beings, more specifically, fallen angels (Genesis 6 in particular)
[4] Decendents of Seth (Genesis 6 in particular)

In its broadest sense, "sons of God" could describe any or all created beings, spiritual or physical. I will agree that Job 38 was not speaking of humans (duh). These are created heavenly beings of some type.

-------------
Let us assume for a moment that those who support the "fallen angel" definition for Genesis 6 are right. I have these questions:

[1] When did the fallen angels fall? Most place this either prior to the six-day creation of earth, or during that time. Genesis 6 takes place much later. If 2 Peter and Jude are referring to this event, why did God allow them free reign for so long? On the other hand, if these passages refer to the event of rebellion, then these angels were already judged.

[2] How could this be limited in time scope or individuals participating? Are you claiming that all of the fallen angels chose to mate with human women all during the same pre-flood time period? If there were any who did not participate, then they were not under the 2 Peter/Jude judgment and therefore could have at a later point in time done the same thing.

[3] There appears to be two groups of thought: [a] The angels took on fleshly form in every aspect and thus the intercourse was possible. Then why would the offspring be any different than other human children? [b] The angels had some kind of created innate ability to impregnate women. Some have even compared this to Jesus' conception (which nauseates me!) This would require that God designed these spirit beings with spiritual sperm. Why?? Remember what Jesus said about the angels and marriage.

[4] IF giants were the resultant offspring (which as I have posted earlier, the sentence structure does not support), then this same behavior was present after the flood and throughout history, for there have been giants reported and documented. Does this not call into question the Jude judgment?

-----------

Finally, Bro. Parrish and his new buddy, GT, mock this venerable old saint by asking,Again, I say: Not every creature in Heaven is an angel! Angels are ONE form of heavenly being.

------------
Enough for now...

Brother Tim,

I only had time to deal with your first out of four questions to us. I'll try to do the rest later (I'm sure you're excited about that!).

Let us assume for a moment that those who support the "fallen angel" definition for Genesis 6 are right. I have these questions:

[1] a) When did the fallen angels fall? Most place this either prior to the six-day creation of earth, or during that time. b) Genesis 6 takes place much later. c) If 2 Peter and Jude are referring to this event, why did God allow them free reign for so long? d) On the other hand, if these passages refer to the event of rebellion, then these angels were already judged.

a) As a proponent of the gap theory I hold that the fallen angels fell sometime between Gen 1:1 and 1:2.
b) Yes, of course.
c)There are 2 subsets of fallen angels. They are those referred to in Jude and 2 Pet who are in chains until the judgement and those who are still free. There are fallen angels that remain free.

Ps 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

When you say "this event" I will assume you are referring to Gen 6 not the rebellion. Are you asking why God allowed the fallen angels to mate with human women at all or for a certain period of time or did He delay judgement and if so, why? God doesn't give us the answer to why He allowed it. This lack of information on His part has no bearing on whether or not the Son's of God are fallen angels.
d) Again, the verses can't refer to the rebellion because of Ps 78:49. There are two groups of fallen angels. All of the fallen angels obviously participated in Satan's rebellion. Some, but not all of the fallen angels left their own habitation.

Your sister,

Jennifer

[Brother Tim]

Response to GB's first comments:

Greenbear, based on your answers, particularly that there are fallen angels that did not participate in the Genesis 6 event, are you acknowledging that this is possibly an ongoing activity?

In reference to:

God doesn't give us the answer to why He allowed it. This lack of information on His part has no bearing on whether or not the Son's of God are fallen angels.

GB, think about what you are saying. These women had no power to prevent this assault (Genesis 6:2 "...they took them wives of all which they chose.") God, foreknowing the actions of that these evil ones would commit, allowed this assault on unprotected, innocent women to take place for however long, and then immediately (and without comment, while at the same time expressing His anger with mankind) slammed the chains on them, leaving the results of their actions to further the destruction of mankind, AND on top of it, left others to perpetuate the same behavior later!?! Verse 3 and 5 scream out the perpetrators of this crime, MAN!