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  #31  
Old 06-22-2009, 01:54 AM
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Mal 4:4 does not say anything about Moses coming again. I agree that the partial fulfillment.

Yeah I agree and I will not rule out that it will be the literal Moses and Elijah. right no requirement to have not died once. But God's word would not be true if anything goes against even one scripture so for a man to die twice in this life and it not be the second death of Rev. 19? you see the problem if men are appointed once to die then judgement Moses has already died and now must face judgement GWT but his name is written in the book of life.

you will notice as many do not all three of those scripture deal solely with Israel.

Tbones,

I have not bent any scriptures I simple took them for what they say. not what they mean. I also keep in mind the whole context and Gods character which can't be violated. you need not me to quote you scriptures for you know which I am speaking of.

I think you need to take a chill pill about the BK thing and relax bro. man you sound like you are wound up tighter than a clock spring.

Elijah was taken up as was Enoch. Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. 2Kings 2:9-11 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Hebrews tells us he was translated. 1Cor 15 never calls what takes place a translation.

The context of Hebrews is narrative of what took place in the past. surely as God made little green apples Enoch would have been alive at the time of the flood. translated because his testimony pleased God. I have no problem with that. he got Gods grace so he would not die of Old Age (impossible because the Flood was in Gods plan) death in the flood seeing Gen 5 is nothing more than a genealogy and Chapter 6 announces God plan for the flood. the death God saved him from can be concluded by the scriptures is death by drowning in the flood. This does not mean he will or will not be the witness in Revelation and I know that it also means Moses nor Elijah will be the two witnesses either.God does not tell us who the two witnesses will be.

please reread your post #29 you are putting words in my mouth stop that you are wrong.

If you want to keep attacking me and say I believe in a BK Bible. where's the beef?

OK what scripture says that Lucifer was one of Five Cherubs and he was their chief? you keep saying but you have no scriptures to prove it.

And if you are referring to the four Seraphim of Exekiel1 or Cherubim of Ezekiel 10. And you saying he was part of that and is no longer there where do you get that? not from scripture but from private interpretation. only one verse calls a being an anointed Cherub that covereth. We connect dots to make it Lucifer/Satan. but nowhere does it ever say that it was he that covered the throne of God. that is purely the assumption of men. the Bible never shows the Chariot throne of God to have been anything more than what we see in Ezekiel. and I don't believe Gods throne was torn apart in the past. of course it would have taken place before Gen1:3 and that would be why it is not revealed in any detail as to what this being covered.

no need to get so dogmatic about this seeing God is silent as to whom these two witnesses are. and thank God no one is going to loose their salvation if they don't believe the two witnesses are or are not Elijah and Moses. as far as your post I did read it. I know what the scriptures say and I have them opened to the the text in question. none of them prove that the two witnesses are Elijah and Moses and if you want to because the same types of plagues are present or fire from heaven is there go ahead but it doesn't mean I did not look at what the BIBLE says. also none of them prove that Enoch will not be one of them. I assumed it to be Elijah and Enoch because neither of them died physically and God word said, Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Whether Enoch is a witness or not. God saved him from death in the flood and that is obvious i have no problem believing that. if God wants to send Enoch or Elijah or MOses or John or TBones to be the two witnesses that is his will. I did not say God had to do anything I posted. and it was wrong of you to imply that seeing I never did imply that.

in conclusion my guess is as good as yours. seeing God is silent and does not say who they are. you can waste you time to argue more. but I give up. My mind however is not made up and I could change my view on who the two are.

Last edited by chette777; 06-22-2009 at 02:16 AM.
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  #32  
Old 06-22-2009, 12:06 PM
whirlwind
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Scripture tells us about two witnesses who will prophesy 1260 days in Jerusalem. Who are these witnesses? Let’s begin with the main verse, Book of Revelation chapter 11, verses 3 through 12:



1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.




Have you ever wondered why Michael was contending with Satan over the body of Moses. Could it be that the Lord was going to resurrect him? But why would he have to resurrect him at that time unless Moses needed to be alive for something that would come later? Let us look at where the Scriptures tell us the prophets all die? And Moses and Elijah, being arguably two of the greatest prophets in the old testament, should certainly die where the rest of their fellow prophets died. And where’s that? The Book of Luke tells use:

Consider that the "two" witnesses are two groups of witnesses...olive trees and candlesticks, not two entities. When we speak of the "body of Christ" we know that it is us....believers. The "body of Moses," that Michael fights Satan over is also....us.
  #33  
Old 06-22-2009, 12:12 PM
peopleoftheway peopleoftheway is offline
 
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Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
Consider that the "two" witnesses are two groups of witnesses...olive trees and candlesticks, not two entities. When we speak of the "body of Christ" we know that it is us....believers. The "body of Moses," that Michael fights Satan over is also....us.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Two Prophets, not two groups of prophets, if it were groups it would be these Prophets, two would not appear in the sentence.
  #34  
Old 06-22-2009, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by peopleoftheway View Post
Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Two Prophets, not two groups of prophets, if it were groups it would be these Prophets, two would not appear in the sentence.


It is as when Israel is referred to as "woman." She is many....not one.


Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

11:4 These are the TWO OLIVE TREES and the TWO CANDLESTICKS, standing before the God of the earth.

I used to read this as the two witnesses being the two candlesticks and the two olive trees...just another name for the same thing but still two entities.

The following scripture shows that I wasn't correct in my belief:


Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven CANDLESTICKS which thou sawest ARE THE SEVEN CHURCHES.


So...the candlesticks are churches and the only two churches He approved of are Philadelphia and Smyrna...they are the two candlesticks standing with the two olive trees before God. Together they are the "Two Witnesses." One of the witnesses (the two candlesticks) is the part of His church that He approves of (those that know and teach truth) and the second of the two witnesses are the two olive trees. Two churches and two olive trees make up the two witnesses.
  #35  
Old 06-22-2009, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
It is as when Israel is referred to as "woman." She is many....not one.


Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

11:4 These are the TWO OLIVE TREES and the TWO CANDLESTICKS, standing before the God of the earth.

I used to read this as the two witnesses being the two candlesticks and the two olive trees...just another name for the same thing but still two entities.

The following scripture shows that I wasn't correct in my belief:


Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven CANDLESTICKS which thou sawest ARE THE SEVEN CHURCHES.


So...the candlesticks are churches and the only two churches He approved of are Philadelphia and Smyrna...they are the two candlesticks standing with the two olive trees before God. Together they are the "Two Witnesses." One of the witnesses (the two candlesticks) is the part of His church that He approves of (those that know and teach truth) and the second of the two witnesses are the two olive trees. Two churches and two olive trees make up the two witnesses.
Whirlwind

Instead of going to Revelation 1 which talks about seven candlesticks which are plainly identified as churches, why not reference Zechariah 4 which talks about the 2 anointed ones.

Zechariah 4

1. And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.

2. And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:

3. And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

4. So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?

5. Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

6. Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

7. Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.

8. Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

9. The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.

10. For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

11. Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

12. And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13. And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

14. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.


Revelation 11
3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets (not churches) tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The only reason a person would try and cram churches into Revelation 11 is if they believed the church would go through the tribulation. Another notable teaching of the "Serpent Seed" folks.
  #36  
Old 06-22-2009, 05:58 PM
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Whirlwind

Instead of going to Revelation 1 which talks about seven candlesticks which are plainly identified as churches, why not reference Zechariah 4 which talks about the 2 anointed ones.

Zechariah 4

1. And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.

2. And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:

3. And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

4. So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?

5. Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

6. Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

7. Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.

8. Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

9. The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.

10. For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

11. Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

12. And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13. And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

14. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.


Revelation 11
3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets (not churches) tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The only reason a person would try and cram churches into Revelation 11 is if they believed the church would go through the tribulation. Another notable teaching of the "Serpent Seed" folks.


Everyone will go through the tribulation....it is written.

The two witnesses are the olive trees and they are the candlesticks, as written. We are told what the candlesticks are. As you stated...they are plainly identified as churches. Therefore we know....the two witnesses are not two entities.

What do the two witnesses do? They "prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days" so they are....the two prophets.....and there are many.
  #37  
Old 06-22-2009, 08:02 PM
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Consider that the "two" witnesses are two groups of witnesses...olive trees and candlesticks, not two entities. When we speak of the "body of Christ" we know that it is us....believers. The "body of Moses," that Michael fights Satan over is also....us.
It's perfectly all right for us to speculate in the venues of the sciences and philosophy, the Scriptures however clearly give a sefl- contained method of study. This method of study has shown us that the literal personages of Moses and Elijah are the Two Witnesses based on a Scripture with Scripture study without having to speculate as Revelation is the restoration of Israel during and after the Tribulation and is written specifically to Tribulation Jews. The speculations on Enoch being one of the witnesses is entirely unScriptural and untenable as Enoch had nothing to do with the nation of Israel, Moses and Elija had everything to do with Israel. The Two Olive Trees,, their presence at the transfiguration and their presence in Rev. 11 clearly make that point. The plagues, turning the waters to blood clearly make Moses the Witnesse we are contending over as these are the events God gave him the power to do in Exodus 7-12.

Micheal's contention with Satan is also clear. If there is a sin that Israel was ever guilty of the Roman Catholic Church is at this instant committing it, the greatest sin, the "accursed thing" of Joshua 7, and that is idolatry and worshiping whatever is not God, including the bones of dead "saints".

De 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

De. 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

Why did God bury Moses and in secret so that even now his burial place is not known?

2Ki 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

Hezekiah destroyed the brass serpent of Moses becasue the children of Israel worshiped it, he called it "nehushtan", "piece of brass".

The bones of Moses would have been enshrined in the Temple at Jerusalem, hidden prior to 70 AD, and would be in the custody of the Catholic Church where they, as the children of Israel would have, be worshiping them at this moment if they had them..

If we are going to speculate, let's speculate based on what is in the Scriptures, let them define themselves and answer their own questions.

Grace and peace friends.

Tony
  #38  
Old 06-22-2009, 10:24 PM
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Is Enoch a prophet? Is there a verse in Scripture that says he is?

The two witnesses are "prophets" -- Moses and Elijah are prophets according to the Word of God. Since some have suggested it to be Enoch, does anyone know whether he is a prophet or not?
  #39  
Old 06-22-2009, 11:37 PM
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Is Enoch a prophet? Is there a verse in Scripture that says he is?

The two witnesses are "prophets" -- Moses and Elijah are prophets according to the Word of God. Since some have suggested it to be Enoch, does anyone know whether he is a prophet or not?
This is what Jude says:

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Though this event has yet to take place, I'm going to propose that based on this one prophecy that comes true(as opposed to ten thousand that are false does not a prophet make)then we might say with accuracy that Enoch was a prophet, since we do possess one(recorded)true prophecy of his.

Grace and peace my friend

Tony
  #40  
Old 06-23-2009, 12:18 AM
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Thanks, for pointing the verse, Brother Tony!
Oh, how could I have missed that one!
 

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