Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
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  #31  
Old 05-16-2008, 10:12 AM
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necessary
By what authority? Could you give few Scripture references perhaps?

If you allow "abideth" to "abides", you may as well allow (given time) anything.

Where does it stop? When does it stop?

The spirit of error wants changes, because it is against truth. Therefore, it logically follows that since we have truth, which is fixed, that is what the spirit of error is against. In other words, there cannot be a spirit of antichrist without the true form existing first. And there cannot be a desire for changes to the King James Bible unless there is some fixed present form first. So really, the spirit of error and the desire for changes are not attacking or altering nothing, but are coming against the idea that there is one final fixed presentation form of the pure truth manifest and extant right now in one language which is accessible to multitudes around the world.

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I believe that the refusal to accept necessary updatings is what is feeding the proliferation of the false versions and making the antichrist happy.
Now we have it: Modern versions exist because the truth is resolute. Or, to be moveable is of God, but to change not is of antichrist. (See Proverbs 5:6 and Malachi 3:6.)

Last edited by bibleprotector; 05-16-2008 at 10:24 AM.
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  #32  
Old 05-16-2008, 10:37 AM
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Moveability as to truth is of antichrist, but it is simple common sense to recognize that language is not fixed as truth is. To make a person an offender because of a word is a grave sin according to scripture.

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If you allow "abideth" to "abides", you may as well allow (given time) anything.
Hardly. My criteria are Biblical. Born-again Holy Spirit led believers determine what changes are necessary.
  #33  
Old 05-16-2008, 11:31 AM
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Connie said:
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Born-again Holy Spirit led believers determine what changes are necessary.
Connie, I think that I remember us covering this issue (seems like) eons ago.

Hopefully a simple point. Consider the current group of individuals who are on this board. Without naming names, I would hope that among the total are more than a few born-again Spirit-led believers. Hopefully, you agree. Now, we can't last a day without one or more fusses breaking out amongst us. Just how well do you think revising the Scriptures would go?
  #34  
Old 05-16-2008, 12:56 PM
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Good point, Bro Tim, sorry I don't remember our previous conversation about this so I'll probably be repeating myself. But at least theoretically I don't know why it couldn't go as well as the original translation of the KJB went with its many translators, because they'd all be people with the needed expertise in the languages and the requirements of translation. Nobody here has any such expertise in translation or language, even the English language, unless I've sadly missed that information. (But I have to admit that it would probably be hard to get the right people together today anyway because something in the . . . what, attitude? tone? seriousness? God-fearingness? . . . of Christian life seems to be different from the time of the KJB translators. I accept that we all have the Holy Spirit but even so there's a lack of seriousness about it somehow.)
  #35  
Old 05-16-2008, 01:24 PM
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...Christian life seems to be different from the time of the KJB translators.
This is exactly why it will not happen again. Jesus Christ came "in the fulness of time." (Gal. 4:4) Everything God does is on a timeline, known only to Him (Mk 13:32). The completion of the presentation of the Scriptures was also prepared and finished. To attempt to build on that cannot and will not be blessed of God. From purely a human prospective, it is impossible. Without the blessing of God, it is sin as well. Every attempt thus far has either failed or has been a diminishing of the truth. God is not in it. It should not be attempted.
  #36  
Old 05-16-2008, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Connie View Post
I'm perfectly fixed in my heart as to the fixedness of God's word. I believe that the refusal to accept necessary updatings is what is feeding the proliferation of the false versions and making the antichrist happy.
That's nonsense. If that were true, then the proliferation of modern versions would 1. not be based on utterly false and corrupt manuscripts and 2. not be so prolific. We have "just one more" new translation every six months or a year. A lack of updates to the KJV is not to blame for itching ears and a spirit of error.
  #37  
Old 05-16-2008, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Beth View Post
I'm wondering just how many you are calling gnat strainers today. In Christian love I ask you as well to search your heart to make sure that you are not spewing forth to your brethren.

What I am seeing from some of those you call gnat strainers is that they are doing their best to back up their statements in a respectful way. We should be able to discuss differences respectfully. disagreeing with someone is not spewing as long as we can be respectful.
Just "WHO" was I addressing when I made this charge? Were there any NAMES MENTIONED? If I didn't name names or address my remarks to any one person on the Forum - WHY are you upset?

There are "Gnat Strainers" on this Forum - and I'm sure that for some of them my remarks "hit home", which they were meant to. But WHY would you take offense?

Your concept of Biblical Christianity and what a Christian man should or should not say has been influenced by our "Politically Correct" Culture. I, for one, refuse to "buy into" this "sissified" and "effeminate" concept of what a man (a Christian man) should be or what he should say.

WHY did you take offense? I can assure you here and now that those remarks were not meant for you, or directed towards you! WHY are you so "sensitive".

Christian MEN are not supposed to meet the standards set up for them by women (saved or lost) - We are supposed to live according to God's INSTRUCTIONS & STANDARDS! I am more concerned with WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE to the Lord, than "what is acceptable" to man. It's not just:

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

It's also:

Ephesians 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth)
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

Do understand the "implications" of the above?

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Are you aware that we are living in that "Time"? This "time" that we live in could easily be called "The Age Of Apostasy" - There is only one other time in the history of the "church of God", where there has been such a falling away from the truth, and that was immediately after the Apostolic Age - when there were at least 80 or more cults and sects vying for the attention of Christians; and when there was a proliferation of "false" books & "false" bibles.

Timothy (and all men who are called of God - myself included) was CHARGED before God to not only be "gentle" with all men, but he was to "reprove" and "rebuke" them! And this is where Biblical DISCERNMENT comes (Knowing WHO to "reprove" or "rebuke" - Ephesians 5:11); and Biblical UNDERSTANDING (Knowing WHY they should (actually "must") be rebuked - Ephesians 5:13); and having the WISDOM to know WHO TO "reprove" or "rebuke" and WHEN to deliver the reproof or rebuke. - 1Timothy 4:1-4)

And what about:

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

If I don't "reprove" someone when they have it coming, I actually am failing to fulfil the duties and responsibilities that God has given me in order that I might be: perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

You see it's not just about "gentleness" & "meekness"; or about "doctrine" & "instruction" - there are times when we must "warn", "admonish", "reprove", and yes, even rebuke! After 50 years of dealing with "all kinds" of "Christians" I usually can "spot" a "SOPHIST" and "DESTRUCTIVE CRITIC" fairly quickly. and since I have learned over the years that there is nothing "Profitable" to be gained by trying to reason with them, I either "reprove" them or "rebuke" them - depending on the circumstances and then I "avoid them" (like the plague). Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. (The idea being that it is better to deal with them "quickly", rather than have happen - what has occurred)

How about this:

1 Timothy 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;

Did T4T treat me in his Post #9 (an elder in a New Testament church) in a "scriptural" manner? I trow not! Then WHY are you defending him and criticizing me? Hmmm? We are told to "judge righteous judgment" - Is your judgment "righteous"?

And what about this verse:

1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

In the context this is referring to "elders", but if it's "good enough" to "rebuke" an elder "before all", it's "good enough" for all Christians. (And there are plenty of "witnesses" to this man's conduct.)

And then there is: {A "bishop" = An "elder" or a "pastor"}

Titus 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience isdefiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Can you not see that, although it is real simple to get saved - living the Christian life according to the Scriptures is a whole lot more than "Milk & Honey" or "Chocolates & Roses". Living according to the Scriptures "costs", because it is contrary to everything that we embraced and absorbed before we were saved. We live in a Humanistic culture and this culture is so "perverse" that it is very difficult to overcome it - unless we live by faith according to the Scriptures, and it will still "cost".

Your "concept" about my behavior is not Biblical and if you would take the time to see how God's men have conducted themselves down through the ages (within the Bible & during the church age), you would quickly find that their conduct was nothing like the "girly men" in modern day "Christianity". Our God is not some "sissified" "effeminate" God and neither are His MEN. Don't make the mistake of judging me by today's Humanistic, Psychological, and Politically Correct standards.

And lastly what about:

Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

I may at times be mistaken in my "discernment", "understanding" and "wisdom" when it comes to my judgment in these matters - and if I am, God will see to it that I am "chastened"; but I am not going to shrink from my duty to "warn"; "admonish"; and "REPROVE"; and, even when the occasion requires, "REBUKE" a "proud", "vain", and "offensive" person who hurls insults at a Christian without regard for What God's word has to say or even what common courtesy would require.

If you will notice: I have not treated you in the same way that I treated him, because I do not perceive that you are anything "like" him.

Respectfully submmited,
  #38  
Old 05-16-2008, 05:10 PM
Connie
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That's nonsense. If that were true, then the proliferation of modern versions would 1. not be based on utterly false and corrupt manuscripts and 2. not be so prolific. We have "just one more" new translation every six months or a year. A lack of updates to the KJV is not to blame for itching ears and a spirit of error.
What I mean is that if a true updated King James had been done that people felt were more accessible, it would be chosen by more churches or at least more individuals. My hope is that the churches may yet wake up, or at least many more individuals, and I honestly do think that there is an unnecessary stubbornness on the KJB-only side that is contributing just as much as itching ears to the current situation -- a fleshly stubbornness, not a Spirit-led discernment. I hate to think of the millions who are being deceived into accepting the corrupt versions. It's not ALL itching ears, there are people who are simply being misled by their leaders -- leaders who usually preach good doctrine, in my opinion though probably not the strictest KJB-onlyers' opinion, and I honestly believe some of this situation is the fault of the latter.

Bro Tim may be right that it's simply impossible to get a true update in any case, but I find it hard to give up on it. I simply cannot regard language as the fixed thing you all do. There are many ways to say exactly the same thing in any language. I have plenty of reasons to want to see the KJB remain as close to the original as possible nevertheless, mainly that changes can be as much of a stumbling block as archaic language.
  #39  
Old 05-16-2008, 05:22 PM
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I'm in Class 3, commonly known as a Ruckmanite.
  #40  
Old 05-16-2008, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Connie View Post
What I mean is that if a true updated King James had been done that people felt were more accessible, it would be chosen by more churches or at least more individuals.
What makes you think that? Is that your intuition? They are obviously not satisfied with any of the modern versions -- they keep clamoring for a new one every year. What reason do you have for believing a "New New KJV" would be any different?

The fact is, people -- most Christians -- could not be bothered to actually care about the authority of God's word. They don't even trust their chosen, preferred modern versions to guide them in their faith. They heap to themselves evermore teachers and scholars to tell them how to get along with the world, when we are supposed to contend for the truth.

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on the KJB-only side that is contributing just as much as itching ears to the current situation -- a fleshly stubbornness, not a Spirit-led discernment.
What makes you qualified to make such a judgment? And no, I'm not talking about your gender. What evidence do you have to support this charge you are making?

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I hate to think of the millions who are being deceived into accepting the corrupt versions. It's not ALL itching ears, there are people who are simply being misled by their leaders -- leaders who usually preach good doctrine, in my opinion though probably not the strictest KJB-onlyers' opinion, and I honestly believe some of this situation is the fault of the latter.
This is a very Chamberlain-esque line of reasoning.

I've been dealing with KJV detractors for a while now -- this website brings all sorts and some of the email I get is just unfathomable -- and I can tell you without any question that an "update" of the language of the KJV is not an issue. Period. There is a concerted effort to replace the authority of the Bible with the authority of men. That is why the KJV is being rejected. It's not because of a few "eths."

Quote:
Bro Tim may be right that it's simply impossible to get a true update in any case, but I find it hard to give up on it.
Why? Do you think God gave you a mission to advocate for a revision of his Bible? This is a serious question -- you are admitting this is your heart here. Is this desire of your heart from God or from your human heart? Do you know what the Bible says about our hearts?
 

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