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  #51  
Old 03-28-2008, 03:05 PM
cpmac
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Although I am not totally certain what dispensationalists mean by "spiritualizing Scripture," here is an example of what I suspect it means:

Revelation 4:1-2 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."


The Dispensational Bible teacher quotes this Scripture, and writes, "John is being taken up into heaven. Inasmuch as John was the last remaining apostle and a member of the Universal Church, his elevation to heaven is a picture of the Rapture of the Church just before the Tribulation begins." (Tim LaHaye, page 99, Revelation Unveiled.)

But who says that this is a picture of the rapture of the Church? Only the futurist scholar.
John was called, and immediately he, and he alone, found himself in the spirit in heaven. The Bible says nothing about the Church being raptured at that time. In fact, dispensationalists repeatedly harp on the fact that the Church is not mentioned any more until much later in Revelation. But if John's elevation into heaven was a picture of the rapture of the Church, it would seem odd if no one mentioned the Church at least once during all the visions that John saw. Could it be that this has nothing to do with any rapture of the Church?

This, in my opinion, is a clear-cut case of man spiritualizing Scripture, but the ones doing the spiritualizing are the dispensationalists, themselves.

cpmac
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  #52  
Old 03-28-2008, 04:39 PM
jerry
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It is not spiritualizing Scripture - but may seem that way if you don't know why they arrived at that conclusion. Revelation one states this:

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

1) The things which thou hast seen - John's vision of Christ in chapter one.
2) The things which are - the seven churches, representing the church age according to the order of the letters, chapters 2-3.
3) The things which shall be hereafter - chapter 4 onwards, the events of the Tribulation and afterwards.

Chapter four starts with this:

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

This is after the church age - which would correspond with the church being raptured. When compared with 1 Thessalonians 4, you can see the language is similar.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Certainly there are some similarities - even if you do not think John's being called to Heaven pictures the rapture, Biblically it certainly fits the timing of the rapture.
  #53  
Old 03-28-2008, 09:32 PM
cpmac
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Jerry:
Quote:
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

This is after the church age - which would correspond with the church being raptured. When compared with 1 Thessalonians 4, you can see the language is similar.
The word "hereafter" simply means "after this moment of time." It might be only moments later, or months later, or years later, and must be determined by the context. But nothing in Scripture dictates that it will be after the present church-age.

cpmac
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  #54  
Old 03-29-2008, 07:03 PM
Buythetruth Buythetruth is offline
 
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A Preterist is one who uses "Gnosis" and "Allegory" to derive their interptetation of scripture. The literal meaning of scripture is of little use as the scriptures are to be spiritually understood. They believe they have an advanced understanding given by God for their pursuit of "wisdom" and "knowledge." This is their means of salvation. They will often tell you they were once where you are now (they believe they have advanced to a 'higher' plane of understanding).

As far as 'spiritualizing' the scriptures goes - this is what they do. I might add that there is no one individual who has the absolute interpretation of scripture. They all have an interpretation that is very impressive, scholarly and seems to cover every aspect. The problem is that they all have an interpretation and they all don't agree with each other. The literal context is not improtant either. Thus - a private interpretation!

An example of 'spiritualizing' would be as follows:

In 1st John 4:2 we have Jesus coming in the flesh. We understand that is in his literal flesh. He shared flesh like we share flesh. Preterist believe (at least some do, especially the 'full blown' type) Jesus came in the flesh too -only not HIS flesh, but YOUR flesh. This way it is 'spiritual' to them - not literal.

Continual dialog is usually fruitless.

Hope this is of some use.

Buythetruth
  #55  
Old 03-31-2008, 11:49 PM
evstevemd
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Exclamation Here it is

Quote:
Originally Posted by cpmac View Post
EvSteveMd:



I've heard the term, "spiritualize," quite often since I became a Christian. I always thought that by spiritualizing, one makes the Bible read something else than what it says. But you seem to have a different view. What, exactly, does it mean to "spiritualize?"

cpmac
http://www.tribulationhoax.com
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I meant to change physical/literal things to be of spiritual realm. Example millenium, rapture...and Jesus birth are Both literal, but they tend to change it
some to spiritual. If bible states Antichrist is "Man" of sin, How could you say He is satan?

Ev. Steve
  #56  
Old 04-02-2008, 09:19 AM
cpmac
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evstevemd :

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If bible states Antichrist is "Man" of sin, How could you say He is satan?
Satan is referred to in many verses as "he," or "him." To say that he is "man" is not a great leap.

Now, my question: What is the "falling away" that must come when he is revealed?

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com.
  #57  
Old 04-02-2008, 01:04 PM
jerry
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Satan is an angel, not a man. He will possess the Antichrist - but that does not make him the Antichrist or vice-versa.
  #58  
Old 04-02-2008, 02:35 PM
evstevemd
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Originally Posted by jerry View Post
Satan is an angel, not a man. He will possess the Antichrist - but that does not make him the Antichrist or vice-versa.
Right brother,
Man of sin not angel of sin!

Ev. Steve
  #59  
Old 04-03-2008, 06:04 AM
cpmac
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Is the devil a "man?" The Scriptures refer to Satan, the devil, as "he,"
or "him." Job 2:1; Matt. 12:26; Mrk. 3:26; Luke 11:18; Luke 22:31; and many more verses refer to Satan in the masculine gender. So at least we know that Satan is not female. In John 8:14, The Lord Jesus Christ said that he was the father of the wicked men in Israel, and also the father of lies.

John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

So, if the Bible can say that Satan is the father of certain people, and we understand that it's all metaphoric, is it so difficult to imagine that the Bible can also refer to him as a "man of sin," even though we all know that he is angelic in nature?

In 2 Thes. 2:4, it says that this "man of sin" exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so the he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Now, this so-called Antichrist, as described by dispensational futurists, is supposed to be the handywork of Satan. He is his his protege, his "right-hand man," and so forth. The one thing a subordinate dare not do is upstage his master, if his master is Satan. "Sitting in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God," is something Satan himself tried; I doubt if he would let any of his flunkies get by with it.

It could be that Paul was not telling us what this "man of sin" was going to do in the future, he might have been merely telling us who this "man of sin" really was by describing some of his past history:

Isaiah 14:12-14 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

You insist that he is a man, but it is interesting that no less an authority than J.Dwight Pentecost lists one of this Antichrist's names as "Angel of the Bottomless Pit." (Things To Come, p 334). This supposedly human being was locked up in the "bottonless pit," a metaphor for the imprisonment of spiritual beings.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com
  #60  
Old 04-03-2008, 10:29 AM
jerry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpmac View Post
Now, this so-called Antichrist, as described by dispensational futurists, is supposed to be the handywork of Satan. He is his his protege, his "right-hand man," and so forth. The one thing a subordinate dare not do is upstage his master, if his master is Satan. "Sitting in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God," is something Satan himself tried; I doubt if he would let any of his flunkies get by with it.
The Bible is pretty clear who is doing this.

Quote:
It could be that Paul was not telling us what this "man of sin" was going to do in the future, he might have been merely telling us who this "man of sin" really was by describing some of his past history:
Why do you wing it on your Bible interpretation. Paul is describing what is going to happen some day. Some Christians were upset because they thought he had already come, but Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians to set them straight.

The devil hasn't already set himself up in the temple.

Quote:
You insist that he is a man, but it is interesting that no less an authority than J.Dwight Pentecost lists one of this Antichrist's names as "Angel of the Bottomless Pit." (Things To Come, p 334).
Pentecost was wrong on many things. This passage also teaches he was a man under the influence of the Devil and was not the Devil:

Revelation 13:1-2 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

The dragon is stated to be the Devil in chapter 12.
 

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