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  #131  
Old 07-07-2009, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN G View Post
Bro. Gord said,


Paul tells us that believing is not a work.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.



John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Brother John G., you are absolutely correct. The reason you got to that point of belief (faith), is by the Grace of God you were elect from the beginning, and that opened your heart to 'beleiveth on him'. God initiated that process for you. If he had not, you would never had the ability to see the truth.
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  #132  
Old 07-07-2009, 01:11 PM
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6. If all people of all time have “equal opportunity” to come to the
Lord through God’s prevenient grace and their own free will, why
is it that salvation is not more evenly dispersed?


In other words God elected those for his glory and that is His Grace.

This is so clear to me, I hope this explains why I think and see this.
Are you serious? Where does the Bible teach God desires equal and fair distribution of salvation?

You asked..."why is it that salvation is not more evenly dispersed?" Gord, where does the Bible ever teach that salvation will be evenly disbursed?

Anyone and all who believe are saved. Salvation is offered to all, but all do not believe...read Brother George's thread. He has already covered that truth thoroughly with precise, clear, easy to understand scripture. This is so basic.

I clearly see, discern, and perceive that you are ensnared with the erroneous teaching of men (who fail to use the Bible as their authority) and that you are not set free by the unfeigned word of truth. I clearly see, discern, and perceive that you stubbornly and blindly refuse to heed Brother George's counsel to put the books, commentaries, and articles down and prayerfully study the word of God.

I will not repeat the truth that has already thoroughly been provided. I strongly urge you to diligently search the scriptures but fully agree with Brother George, it's difficult to hear God when you are so full of man.
  #133  
Old 07-07-2009, 01:19 PM
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Default Re: " CALVINISM: Sound Doctrine?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN G View Post

Bro. Gord said,
Quote:
"5. Salvation is by grace alone and for God’s glory alone. If people are elect based on their own choice, then merit is gained through the work of the individual (i.e., their faith).
Paul tells us that believing is not a work
."
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Aloha brother John,

You got it brother! "BELIEVING" IS NOT A "WORK"! I thought, with all of the Scripture and illustrations that I provided, that I made that clear in my studies, but either brother Gord REJECTS the teaching, or he MISSED it.
  #134  
Old 07-07-2009, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
Are you serious? Where does the Bible teach God desires equal and fair distribution of salvation?

You asked..."why is it that salvation is not more evenly dispersed?" Gord, where does the Bible ever teach that salvation will be evenly disbursed?

Anyone and all who believe are saved. Salvation is offered to all, but all do not believe...read Brother George's thread. He has already covered that truth thoroughly with precise, clear, easy to understand scripture. This is so basic.

I clearly see, discern, and perceive that you are ensnared with the erroneous teaching of men (who fail to use the Bible as their authority) and that you are not set free by the unfeigned word of truth. I clearly see, discern, and perceive that you stubbornly and blindly refuse to heed Brother George's counsel to put the books, commentaries, and articles down and prayerfully study the word of God.

I will not repeat the truth that has already thoroughly been provided. I strongly urge you to diligently search the scriptures but fully agree with Brother George, it's difficult to hear God when you are so full of man.
Please reread the Question
Note the word IF
Note the punctuation mark at the end ?

It must be hard to see clearly, how then can you be objective with what you read? When a simple question is asked to prove an obvious point, as sarcasm.
  #135  
Old 07-07-2009, 02:20 PM
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....clear in my studies, but either brother Gord REJECTS the teaching, or he MISSED it.
Brother George, with all due respect and love,
you call my summary statement "In other words God elected those for his glory and that is His Grace." my rejection.

It's really showing me that "human pride" really is stronger than one cares to admit or even notice within themselves. I thought I explained correctly that I wasn't a 'Georgist' and agreed that you aren't a Gordist, and you take that a rejection.

It's no wonder Mohandas Gandhi said "The only thing that keeps me from being a Christian, is Christians." They disguise their pride as did the Scribes and Pharisees behind the cloak of religion.

But what was I thinking, a Calvinist (reformed based on the word of God) on a KJV only Baptist based forum, we could learn from each other but not when only one side pays attention.

I apologize ahead of time, for also letting my pride take this to a personal level, so I will excuse myself.

I appreciate your study in opening my eyes to the truth, my payer is you will understand.

Last edited by Gord; 07-07-2009 at 02:33 PM.
  #136  
Old 07-07-2009, 03:15 PM
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The problem is Gord, you will now make everything about Calvinism, because that is the essence of Calvinism. Nothing will be untainted by God's "eternal decree".

Let me ask you this. Since you believe "God elected those for his glory and that is His Grace.", why did he reject billions more, if he actually wants them to be saved? God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Eze 33:11), and yet, according to you, God intentionally reprobated or passively passed them by, depending on your lapsarian view, for his sovereign pleasure, when he could have elected them.

So either God does take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, or he doesn't take pleasure in it.

The Bible says that all things were created for His pleasure (Rev 4:11), but God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Eze 33:11).

Now, the standard calvinist answer to my above question is either

i) The secret will of God cannot be known, who art thou O man that repliest against God...

Or, if you want to be more discussive & turn it around to be positive, it's usually

ii) God looked down upon man concluded all under sin and was not obliged to save any. The wonder of His grace is that He chose to save some!

But those don't answer the question at all, but bypass it. The question remains, why does a Sovereign God who emphatically states he

i) Takes no pleasure in the wicked
ii) Wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth
iii) Is not willing that any should perish
iv) Recieves glory from praise and obedience

,Secretly declare that BILLIONS will go to hell (because he either chose them (reprobated) to go, or passed over them while he was decreeing unconditional election - the difference is moot really), and that the reason they go to hell is for his Sovereign PLEASURE and GLORY?

You have a God who contradicts his own nature and very word.
  #137  
Old 07-07-2009, 03:47 PM
peopleoftheway peopleoftheway is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
The problem is Gord, you will now make everything about Calvinism, because that is the essence of Calvinism. Nothing will be untainted by God's "eternal decree".

Let me ask you this. Since you believe "God elected those for his glory and that is His Grace.", why did he reject billions more, if he actually wants them to be saved? God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Eze 33:11), and yet, according to you, God intentionally reprobated or passively passed them by, depending on your lapsarian view, for his sovereign pleasure, when he could have elected them.

So either God does take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, or he doesn't take pleasure in it.

The Bible says that all things were created for His pleasure (Rev 4:11), but God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Eze 33:11).

Now, the standard calvinist answer to my above question is either

i) The secret will of God cannot be known, who art thou O man that repliest against God...

Or, if you want to be more discussive & turn it around to be positive, it's usually

ii) God looked down upon man concluded all under sin and was not obliged to save any. The wonder of His grace is that He chose to save some!

But those don't answer the question at all, but bypass it. The question remains, why does a Sovereign God who emphatically states he

i) Takes no pleasure in the wicked
ii) Wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth
iii) Is not willing that any should perish
iv) Recieves glory from praise and obedience

,Secretly declare that BILLIONS will go to hell (because he either chose them (reprobated) to go, or passed over them while he was decreeing unconditional election - the difference is moot really), and that the reason they go to hell is for his Sovereign PLEASURE and GLORY?

You have a God who contradicts his own nature and very word.
Brother
  #138  
Old 07-07-2009, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gord View Post
6. If all people of all time have “equal opportunity” to come to the
Lord through God’s prevenient grace and their own free will, why
is it that salvation is not more evenly dispersed?


In other words God elected those for his glory and that is His Grace.

This is so clear to me, I hope this explains why I think and see this.
In an effort to make it clear, explanatory, and why I totally refute what you think and see.

John 3:17-19 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

This is so clear to me, I hope this explains why I believe, receive, and teach whosoever believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, how that He died for our sins, was buried, and rose again on he third day will be saved. I trust the Bible has proven an obvious point. IF you believe...you are not condemned. IF you do not believe, you are condemned.
  #139  
Old 07-07-2009, 04:39 PM
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Diligent Diligent is offline
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I recall when I was sucked into Calvinism. It was shortly after I "got serious" about Bible study. I first resisted it. This is how it went:

1. Somebody tells me, God predestinated us to be saved or not.
2. I say, no, that makes us all robots.
3. They point out all the verses that use the word "predistinate" "elect" and the forms thereof.
4. Suddenly I have to become a Calvinist.

Why the leap from 3 to 4? Because I let the Calvinist define what predestination affects, so when I run across the word, I have to accept their position.

The key (and why I finally dropped Calvinism and took God out of Calvin's box) is what does God predestinate? You ask a Calvinist to find you a verse that says God predestines us to belief or not, and they will never produce a single one -- they will run all sorts of circuits trying to link things up, but they can't do it.

The fundamental failure in the Calvinist "process" of Salvation is that they place the seal if the Holy Spirit before belief. They say nobody can believe God until the Holy Spirit changes them so that they can. But Paul leaves no room for this error:
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
The whole point of predestination is that God chose us IN CHRIST. We become in Christ by believing on him and receiving him. The corporate body of Christ was predestined to this inheritence (verse 14), which is still future.
Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
What we "get" out of predestination hasn't even occurred yet -- it's a future redemption.

The other taboo verse for Calvinism is this:
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Calvinism turns this verse into a mockery instead of an invitation. It turns our Saviour into a disingenuous pleader. The standard Calvinist response to this is "nobody will." That just turns the words of our Lord into a void, and we know that isn't possible. (Isa 55:11)
  #140  
Old 07-07-2009, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diligent View Post
I recall when I was sucked into Calvinism. It was shortly after I "got serious" about Bible study. I first resisted it. This is how it went:

1. Somebody tells me, God predestinated us to be saved or not.
2. I say, no, that makes us all robots.
3. They point out all the verses that use the word "predistinate" "elect" and the forms thereof.
4. Suddenly I have to become a Calvinist.

Why the leap from 3 to 4? Because I let the Calvinist define what predestination affects, so when I run across the word, I have to accept their position.

The key (and why I finally dropped Calvinism and took God out of Calvin's box) is what does God predestinate? You ask a Calvinist to find you a verse that says God predestines us to belief or not, and they will never produce a single one -- they will run all sorts of circuits trying to link things up, but they can't do it.

The fundamental failure in the Calvinist "process" of Salvation is that they place the seal if the Holy Spirit before belief. They say nobody can believe God until the Holy Spirit changes them so that they can. But Paul leaves no room for this error:
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
The whole point of predestination is that God chose us IN CHRIST. We become in Christ by believing on him and receiving him. The corporate body of Christ was predestined to this inheritence (verse 14), which is still future.
Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
What we "get" out of predestination hasn't even occurred yet -- it's a future redemption.

The other taboo verse for Calvinism is this:
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Calvinism turns this verse into a mockery instead of an invitation. It turns our Saviour into a disingenuous pleader. The standard Calvinist response to this is "nobody will." That just turns the words of our Lord into a void, and we know that isn't possible. (Isa 55:11)
For additional edification, expound on this:

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
 

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