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  #11  
Old 07-11-2009, 10:18 PM
Steve Schwenke
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I think the problem here is how the word ordinance is being used. I don't think we are using it in the same way that you think we are.
An ordinance is simply an established rite or ceremony; or a rule established by authority. (Websters 1828). The rule here is established by the authority of the Holy Bible (AV1611). It is something we observe as a rule - the exception would be for those Christians who choose not to be baptized. it is their choice (a poor one IMO). It doesn't make them any less saved, or me more saved. But it is the established practise based upon the examples listed in Scripture, as John G has listed for us.

This appears to me to be a problem in semantics.
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  #12  
Old 07-12-2009, 12:52 AM
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It may be semantics but it is also the fact the KJV Bible never uses the word ordinance at all for Baptism. the Bible is to be the basis of doctrine not our words for which we use to define our doctrines.
  #13  
Old 07-12-2009, 02:45 AM
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Default What The Grace Of God Will NOT Allow

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Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
1Corithians 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

Could the ordinances Paul is referring to here be the letter he and Barnabas were sent to deliver to each of the Gentile churches in Acts 15. Paul and Jesus never refer to the Lord's Table and Baptism as ordinances in the word of God.

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Acts 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

Webster's Dictionary meaning of Ordinance states: 2. A rule established by authority; a permanent rule of action; a statute, law, regulation, rescript, or accepted usage; an edict or decree; esp., a local law enacted by a municipal government; as, a municipal ordinance.

So "decrees for to keep" indicate some form of ordinance that was to be kept Acts 21:25 supports this as does the original counsel meeting in Acts 15

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

and for after 1Cor11:2 Paul goes into talking about prayer. Baptism never comes into view in this chapter and later the remarks, 1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, would be something Paul privately got from the Lord during his time in Damascus and Arabia. would indicate the ordinances of Verse 2 was the letter from the Jerusalem counsel. for if chapter 11 is progressive in Paul's thinking he first clarifies Prayer by whom and how, then the coming together for the Lord's tables, then details on How the Lord told Paul about the Lord's table and how it is to be observed.

Now never anywhere in Paul's writing s does he give what we call the ordinance of Baptism or clarify at any times that Doctrine of Baptism by water immersion. this is no indication that it wasn't practiced or observed. but the Lord Table and water Baptism is connected with the term ordinances. and the term delivered would be a weak basis to establish an doctrine of ordinances. for Paul delivered the letter from the Jerusalem counsel, he delivered money to the Jerusalem saints, he delivered some unto Satan.

How is it we have come to call Baptism and the Lord's table Ordinances when in the Bible they are never called ordinances?

So I have some to the conclusion Verse 2 is pointing to the letter from the Jerusalem counsel and not referring to the Lord's Table and Baptism as we have come to call them ordinances.
Mt 26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

Mt 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Ac 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

I'm not going to address in detail water baptism, we have a thread for that already, I will say Paul's commission was not water baptism to make a "kingdom of priests" of israel, the gospel of the kingdom of Heaven(Restored Israel) but the gospel of Christ crucified apart from any work that is now made available to Gentiles equal in His Body. Paul's ministry in the book of Acts was "to the Jew first, and also the Greek(proselytes). Why then did Paul baptize Jews? He had to, it is the first sign of an apostle(Mark 16). Water baptism is not operative or effications without signs following, and the Jews require a sign, I don't. Same with "the Lord's supper". Firstly, this "supper" was initiated on the Jewish Passover, which I don't observe. I'm a Gentile and so are you. What is the spiritual application of this then? In the Body of Christ we remember His sacrifice, we show the Lord's death with every meal we eat.

FInd me one other Christian who believes and practices that. Give it a try sometime. Not a weekly or monthly or yearly event, try remembering the skin whipped from His Body and then nailed to a cross every time you eat.

EW Bullinger stated the Body of Christ began at Acts 28, he was wrong, the signs and ordinances ceased at Acts 28.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Eph. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Ga 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight: )

I practice NO ordinances of water baptism, the "Lord's supper", nor teach any, and no man on this planet, no Baptist, Protestant, Catholic, or cultist is allowed to judge me for it. God's Grace will not allow it.

God's Grace will not allow what can be seen:

Water baptism
The "Lord's supper".
Tongues
Signs
Wonders
Healing
Handling snakes
Dress codes
"Church letters"
"Foot washing"

There is one thing and one thing only God's grace will allow:

The preaching of the cross. If you add anything to that, welcome to Galatia my friend, there is a MOTEL 6 right up the road.

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

There is your "great commission", and it begins with your next door neighbor, not 10,000 miles away.

Grace and peace friends

Tony
  #14  
Old 07-12-2009, 07:26 AM
Steve Schwenke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonybones2112 View Post
Same with "the Lord's supper". Firstly, this "supper" was initiated on the Jewish Passover, which I don't observe. I'm a Gentile and so are you. What is the spiritual application of this then? In the Body of Christ we remember His sacrifice, we show the Lord's death with every meal we eat.
Do you have a Scripture for that?

I Cor. 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper. [Oh, so it IS legitimate to call it the Lord's supper!]
21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. [So the Lord's supper is distinct from our own meals!]
22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. [if you want to eat a meal, eat it at home. the Lord's supper is a distinct memorial, not a big fellowship gathering to stuff ourselves!]
23 ¶ For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: [Yikes! this instruction is coming directly from the Lord!!!]
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come. [v. 23-26 are rehearsals of what happened on that night before Jesus was crucified]
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. [now we move into the present instruction concerning the Lord's supper]
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

Paul makes a distinction between our ordinary "fellowship" meals, and a particular meal that HE terms "the Lord's supper." He uses the terms "this bread, this cup, that bread, that cup" to distinguish it from all others. He is speaking of a particular meal that we as believers are to partake of. We are to partake of it for the expressed purpose in v. 26.
The passage condemns those who were pretending to observe "the Lord's supper" without consideration for the poor who could bring nothing to the table. So the rich excluded the poor; the rich stuffed themselves, and the poor went hungry in their pretend observation.
Paul corrects that, reminds them that (1) there IS a thing called "the Lord's supper", (2) it is to be observed by all in the church, with no regard to economy, (3) it was a simple observation that reminds us of the broken body of Christ, and the blood that was shed, which are seen in the bread and grape juice.
  #15  
Old 07-12-2009, 11:52 AM
Bro. Parrish
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Bro. Steve, you have to bear with Tony, he is as confused on the Lord's Supper as he is on Baptism. He is one of the very few hyperdispensationalists on the board and he hacks on Baptists now and then but he will march into the flames right beside you on the KJV issue, so please bear with him brother. If you really want to see the scorched ground and mother of all threads on baptism it's here, but if you bump it the thing might explode:
http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1204
  #16  
Old 07-12-2009, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish View Post
Bro. Steve, you have to bear with Tony, he is as confused on the Lord's Supper as he is on Baptism. He is one of the very few hyperdispensationalists on the board and he hacks on Baptists now and then but he will march into the flames right beside you on the KJV issue, so please bear with him brother. If you really want to see the scorched ground and mother of all threads on baptism it's here, but if you bump it the thing might explode:
Parish,

Ever hear of the old adage you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar?

look back to your quote i have underlined your vinegar. if you ever want to help edify and help try not using such in your posts.

you posted two thing that needed not been said at all and would of made for peace. if infer he is confused (personal opinion) he hacks (personal attack) both these terms belittled him and you knew they would.

so does that sound like a true Christians Character?

If he is causing division or teaching a false teaching what are you to do?

Argue? ridicule?

your are to rebuke. if he doesn't respond you are to not have anything to do with him.

or you are just to press the ignore button in your cp and have don't fellowship via the post.

you show no christian character what so ever? so let me ask you, "Why don't we see Christ in you?"
  #17  
Old 07-12-2009, 06:59 PM
Bro. Parrish
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Chette, thanks for your comments and perspective.
I try to balance truth with love the best I can. If I have posted an UNTRUTH about anyone here you are welcome to point it out as you see fit. My post is not all negative, but if you choose to only SEE and HIGHLIGHT the negative in someone's posts, I cannot help that. Your advice seems to be to burn a bridge, press the ignore button and have nothing to do with Tony, but I choose not to do that with him, in fact I have found common ground with him on many issues such as the inerrancy of the King James Bible which we all love and defend. We don't have to all agree on EVERYTHING in order to avoid burning bridges. Please remember that. And by the way, please notice I choose to still call you brother, even though you no longer call me brother, and I choose to spell your name correctly when I address you. God bless, will pray for your ministry.
  #18  
Old 07-12-2009, 07:55 PM
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it is not about truth or untruth. It is about doing things to edify rather than tear down.

If you don't like what any individual says the best thing don't reply.

as long as you cause division I will treat as I am to by what the Bible says.

Steve,

there you go. are you able to read my heart? do you think it is all about you? I did post to Parish.

I could be wrong but if you are focused on you, how can you help anyone else? if you focus on your words that cause dissent as being words of wisdom or admonition think again before you post. you and the others are the only ones who can stop the aggressive posting. if it doesn't stop this site will be shut down. then how will you ever help?

Let the Holy Ghost work. If you are convicted then do your best to correct yourself. if not let the post speak to others as well. but don't assume anything.

I gave a reply to your question in another post. I used terms like you guys and others that is all inclusive words. but I haven't been to pointed to point out any ones error. I am trying to let God do that. so either listen to him or listen you your heart (which like mine is deceitful above all measure). You and others are being led by your flesh to the victory of Satan not to the edifying of God people.

ok get the thread back on topic now.

Last edited by chette777; 07-12-2009 at 08:04 PM.
  #19  
Old 07-12-2009, 08:14 PM
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Oh Bro drop it ok. you are putting in a stirring stick. if you start stirring the muck it will stink.

get back tot he thread topic and drop all else.
  #20  
Old 07-12-2009, 08:26 PM
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yes it did. I think we have an understanding now.
 

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