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Old 03-24-2008, 09:29 AM
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Echoing Diligent, please read The Other Side of Calvinism.
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  #12  
Old 03-24-2008, 09:52 AM
grace to me
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Originally Posted by Diligent View Post
Just curious: if there is no free will, why get upset over people believing they have free will? (You might need to read that twice.)


I am still interested in what you "do" with:
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Is this word empty, null, and void?

Finally, have you read The Other Side of Calvinism by Lawrence Vance?
diligent im not upset over any thing , mearly tring to explain what God's Word says without contradiction.
the passage in rev. is talking about those who are able to here ,
i have already stated that faith is a work , 1 Thess.1:3 , 2 Thess.1:11 ect. many come back with rom.4:5 and say faith isn't a work so you have two verses that obviously seem to contradict each other so lets dig a little deeper to find out what Rom.4:5 is talking about , here is an outline on the study of Rom.4:5
in order
to come to the truth we cannot shove verses at each other that say opposite
things for instance one verse plainly says faith is a work and another verse says
worketh not but believeth , it can't be both ways and we can't pick one verse and
ignore the other , it all fits without contradiction , its like a big puzzle where a
piece may seem to fit [ the shape is right ]but the colors in the surrounding pieces
don't match . thats kind of what we have here , if we say its our belief that saves us
then we have other things that don't fit like 1 Jn.3:22-23 believing is keeping God's commandment,
then we would have the sinner obeying God's command to believe plus the obedience of Christ ,
that would be the obedience of two where scripture plainly teaches that its the obedience of one .
If we use Paul our example he was saved in his unbelief he was on the damascus road still
seeking Christians to bind them and bring them to jerusalem to punish them.
he was saved before he believed . Grace is a free gift there is nothing you have to do to recieve it.
to sum up verse 5 in Romans 4 , to him that worketh not [ trusting in the faith of Christ, his free gift of grace ]
he's not believing to get saved but wholly trusting in Christ , and what he did , vs. trusting in our faith which
is something we do which would be like verse 4 , Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace ,
but of debt. if we do something to get saved it is no longer of grace but of debt. Abrahams faith was not trusting
in something he did , but wholly in God alone .






Romans 4:5

I. Ro.4:5 is commonly run to by people who do not believe that faith
(the sinner's faith) is a work on the part of the sinner.
A. They commonly affirm that eternal life is gained by grace and not
works.
B. They also affirm that the sinner is rewarded with eternal life
because of his belief.
C. Taken at face value out of context, Ro.4:5 appears to support this
mistake.
D. Alone, without any qualification from its context or other
Scripture, this verse must mean that a person should never do good
works--only believe, since righteousness is "to him that worketh
not, but believeth..."
1. Clearly, Scripture teaches otherwise. Ep.2:10; Ja.2:17-19.
2. Obviously there is a particular KIND of faith under consideration
that "is counted for righteousness."

II. To deny that human faith (belief, trust, reliance, confidence in)
is a work is to deny the very definition of the word.
A. Work: "Something that is or was done; what a person does or did."
B. See Mt.23:23; Ac.16:30-31; 1 Th.1:3.
C. Believing on Jesus Christ is a commandment. 1 Jn.3:22-23.
1. Keeping commandments is a righteous work on our part. De.6:25.
2. Eternal life/forgiveness of sins does not come by such. Tit.3:5.

III. A good clue to the proper understanding of Ro.4:5 is in the
preceding verse (4).
A. In v.4., two concepts of acquisition are set forth.
1. Acquisition may come through establishing the other party's
indebtedness to you through your work.
2. Or, acquisition may come through grace, which forbids the idea
of the giver having to discharge a debt to you.
3. Grace and work are mutually exclusive. Ro.11:6.
B. Men are justified FREELY by grace. Ro.3:24.
1. Free: "(Of a gift Given out of liberality or generosity, (not in
return or requital for something else)."
2. Grace: "Favour, favourable or benignant regard or its
manifestation (now only on the part of a superior); favour or
goodwill, in contradistinction to right or obligation, as the
ground of a concession."
C. If v.5 is teaching that eternal life/righteousness comes by God
rewarding you for your belief (something you do), then v.4 is
meaningless!

IV. The assumption is errantly made that the phrase "counted for
righteousness (vs. 3, 5)" means "obtained/became righteous."
A. Thus, in v.3, where it says, "Abraham believed God and it was
counted unto him for righteousness," it is interpretted to mean
that Abraham became righteous and in the possession of eternal life
when he exercised faith.
B. The expression "faith is counted for righteousness" thus becomes a
formula or condition for the acquisition of eternal life.

V. However, this theory is proven wrong by numerous points.
A. Ro.4:3 is quoted from Ge.15:5-6 where God promised Abraham that he
would have a seed as numerous as the stars of heaven.
B. Abraham had already exercised faith years previously when he left
Ur of the Chaldees. He.11:8.
1. Did Abraham obtain eternal life back then and later lose it, to
regain it in Ge.15?
2. If Abraham's belief back then did not (according to the theory)
obtain his eternal life, why not? The factors are the same: God
spoke; Abraham believed; Abraham acted accordingly.
C. The expression, "Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him
for righteousness" is also rendered:
1. "....reckoned...for righteousness." Ro.4:9.
2. "....accounted...for righteousness." Ga.3:6.
3. "....imputed...for righteousness." Ja.2:23.
D. If it is true that this phraseology is setting forth a condition
which Abraham fulfilled in order to obtain righteousness/life, it
must be noted:
1. That expression refers to three different events in Abraham's
life:
a. When he received the promise of an innumerable seed. Ge.15:6.
b. When he came out of Ur of the Chaldees. Ga.3:6-8 c/w Ge.12:3.
c. Much later when he offered up Isaac. Ja.2:21-23.
2. Does this therefore mean that Abraham became righteous thrice?
E. Also, if the phrase "counted unto him for righteousness" is setting
forth a condition to obtain eternal life, then it must likewise be
doing so in Ps.106:30-31.
1. This refers to the time when Phinehas took a javelin and thrust
it through a couple fornicators . Num.25:6-9


VI. When something is a "counter," as when faith is "counted" for
righteousness, it is only a token.
A. For example, a good analogy is: If you had nothing with which to
purchase a train ticket out of a doomed city and someone out of
sheer mercy and love paid the price for you and gave you the
ticket, that ticket itself is not what purchased your deliverance.
It is but a token that the purchase price of deliverance had been
paid FOR YOU. It is an evidence of a satisfied requirement.
B. So too is a sinner's faith. It is an evidence or witness that a
person HAS BEEN purchased and made righteous! He.11:1, 4.
C. Our faith is not what causes the new birth. It is the evidence
of the new birth and eternal life. Jn.5:24; 1 Jn.5:1, 4.
D. When Abraham believed God, he only manifested that God had made
him righteous and given him a new inward nature capable of true
belief.

VII. Ro.4:3-5 is actually teaching the opposite of what most people
believe about it.
A. If a person believes that his faith (something he does) PROCURES
his righteousness/life, that is a reward reckoned BY DEBT, not
grace! Such a faith is NOT counted for righteousness.
B. If a person believes that Christ ALONE justified him by His
substitutionary death and resurrection without any input on the
sinner's part, that faith IS counted for righteousness.
Ro.5:19; He.1:3.
  #13  
Old 03-24-2008, 01:21 PM
beloved57
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Quote:
Just curious: if there is no free will, why get upset over people believing they have free will? (You might need to read that twice.)
Just curoius sir, why do you believe in freewill of men, when the bible never says it ?


I
Quote:
am still interested in what you "do" with:
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Is this word empty, null, and void?
This verse is not stating that man has a freewill. Its speaking to a specific people with who thirst ..

You must compare scripture with scripture to get an understanding..

Those who thirst, are those who have been made spiritually alive by the Holy Spirit of God , Jesus calls those who thirst, blessed..

matt 5:

6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Those who will let them drink , but who are willing ? Certainly not proud self righteous people as Jesus spoke to on this occasion:

jn 5:

40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

So obviously those like this group jesus is not referring to in the revealation passage, but to these , as in ps 110:

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

In the day of the power of God the Holy Spirit Gods chosen people are willing people..

The apostle paul is a biblical Illustration of this blessed truth, even while he was in the heat of passion and rage against christ and His people, he was arrested by the power of Christ and became willing..moments later he referred to him [ Jesus of Nazareth] as Lord..

So frankly sir, you have not and cannot prove man has a freewill by the verse you have presented..
  #14  
Old 03-24-2008, 01:29 PM
beloved57
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Quote:
1. Then sin is sovereign?
2. Going to the Greek?
Yes it was, not any more if you read the passage correctly, sins sovereignty is supplanted by the reigning of grace..

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

vs 21:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord

so your philosophy gives more respect to the effects of sin by adam, than the effects of grace by Jesus christ..
  #15  
Old 03-24-2008, 01:41 PM
beloved57
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Faith flows from without the man to the man by Gods grace, faith is not of ourselves says paul but it as well as and included with salvation is a gift..

Faith therefore reveals salvation consicously to the heirs of salvation , it gives them assurance , spiritual suasion to trust, to take God at His word of promise..

heb 11:

1Now faith is the (A)assurance of things (B)hoped for, the conviction of (C)things not seen.

Another scripture speaks of the assurance of faith..

1 thess 1:

5For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Now we know paul on the road of damascus did not have faith when he was breathing out threats and slaughters, but the power of God gave him faith and love to Jesus christ as a gift, here is his testimony..

1 tim 1:

13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

See, faith is a gift of Gods grace to the elect, thats why its written by this same man..

eph 2:

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Nothing of man all from grace..sovereign grace , we see here a illustration in pauls conversion of grace reigning supremely over sin and death, and so it is with all the election of grace..
  #16  
Old 03-24-2008, 02:21 PM
jerry
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Actually the Bible does refer to man's free will. The OT even refers to freewill offerings - be pretty hard to have that kind of offering if man had no free will, wouldn't you say? There are MANY passages in the OT and the NT where God appeals to man, and they reject His offer of salvation, rest, fellowship, etc. That is man - whether lost or saved rejecting God's commandments and will or desire.
  #17  
Old 03-24-2008, 02:45 PM
beloved57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry View Post
Actually the Bible does refer to man's free will. The OT even refers to freewill offerings - be pretty hard to have that kind of offering if man had no free will, wouldn't you say? There are MANY passages in the OT and the NT where God appeals to man, and they reject His offer of salvation, rest, fellowship, etc. That is man - whether lost or saved rejecting God's commandments and will or desire.
A freewill offering has nothing to do with mans freewill. A freewill offering was a offering that just wasnt required by law of moses lol..

So please show a verse where it states man has a freewill..
  #18  
Old 03-24-2008, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
So please show a verse where it states man has a freewill..
"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." Gen 3:6
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Old 03-24-2008, 04:08 PM
beloved57
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Originally Posted by Debau View Post
"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." Gen 3:6
This verse does not state man has a freewill...sorry
  #20  
Old 03-24-2008, 04:16 PM
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Diligent Diligent is offline
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Originally Posted by grace to me View Post
diligent im not upset over any thing , mearly tring to explain what God's Word says without contradiction.
It's good that you're not upset. I didn't think you were.

Quote:
the passage in rev. is talking about those who are able to here ,
I have read what you've written, but I still haven't seen a direct response to my question. What do you do with "whosoever will" and "freely?" When your doctrine teaches that nobody can "will" and there is no "freely?"

I don't believe that there are any contradictions about predestination, and the only apparent contradictions are due to the redefinitions of terms by the system of Calvinism. Ephesians 1 is actually very clear on what is predestinated -- your choice is not a predestined choice (that would not be choice or belief -- that's just programming) -- your belief comes before your salvation, as is apparent in the same chapter. The sequence of events is actually quite clear; what is predestinated is actually quite clear. It is Calvinism that muddies the waters and turns the Lord's invitation to drink freely of the water of life into an empty plea.
 

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