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  #31  
Old 06-27-2009, 05:53 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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God did not cast away all Israel. Read Romans 11 in which Paul reveals OT scripture concerning the gospel going to the Gentiles.

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.


So, Paul here shows that God did not cast away Israel, for he was a Jew himself. And all the early Christians were Jews. What you do not understand is believeing Jews versus unbelieveing Jews.

And in Romans 10 Paul tells of both Moses and Isaiah foretelling of the Gentiles being offered the gospel.

Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

So not all Israel was cast away as Paul shows. And Israel was not saved apart from the Gentiles, they are one body.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

So, this is another false teaching of hyper-dispensationalism.

Last edited by Winman; 06-27-2009 at 06:19 PM.
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  #32  
Old 06-27-2009, 06:59 PM
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Winman, I am through arguing with you.

but for the record no one not anyone on this forum has ever said that God was through with Israel. We know he has temporarily set them aside as usable vessels to reach the Nations.

and we are not hyper-dispensationlists.
  #33  
Old 06-27-2009, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Winman View Post
God did not cast away all Israel. Read Romans 11 in which Paul reveals OT scripture concerning the gospel going to the Gentiles.

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.


So, Paul here shows that God did not cast away Israel, for he was a Jew himself. And all the early Christians were Jews. What you do not understand is believeing Jews versus unbelieveing Jews.

And in Romans 10 Paul tells of both Moses and Isaiah foretelling of the Gentiles being offered the gospel.

Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

So not all Israel was cast away as Paul shows. And Israel was not saved apart from the Gentiles, they are one body.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

So, this is another false teaching of hyper-dispensationalism.
Winman, my previous post was a one sentence clarification to your post before last which was a misunderstanding of my post before that. I have never said God was through with Israel. And that would be the opposite of hyperdispensationalsim it would be replacement theology. I am already wondering how you may misconstrue this post.
  #34  
Old 06-28-2009, 02:29 PM
JOHN G JOHN G is offline
 
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Thanks brothers and sisters for the discussion. I lean towards Bro. Winman's position of one gospel. How does one reconcile these verses?


Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Paul's gospel (singular) has existed since the world began. One could say it is everlasting, and is synonymous with the gospel of Rev. 14.6.

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

The Gentiles were preached the gospel (singular) unto by Peter's mouth. How could Peter's gospel to the Gentiles be different than Paul's gospel to the Gentiles?

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

It is interesting that Paul mentions an angel from heaven. Is the angel of the everlasting gospel of Rev. 14:6 accursed?

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Peter was not living uprightly according to the truth of the gospel (singular), which gospel, if there is two?

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

I don't see how multiple gospels can coexist with Jesus' statement "to every creature".

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
1Co 15:11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

Paul clearly lays out the gospel (singular) here and says he (Paul) and they (the other apostles) preach (present tense) it.

Blessings to you all.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
  #35  
Old 06-28-2009, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by JOHN G View Post
The Gentiles were preached the gospel (singular) unto by Peter's mouth. How could Peter's gospel to the Gentiles be different than Paul's gospel to the Gentiles?
I don't think it was different John, according to these articles that is one of the errors of Hyper- or Ultra-dispensationalism:
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/books/hy...tionalism.html
http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/wrongly1.html

Ultimately, every believer will have to examine the scriptures and decide for themselves. This has proven to be a divisive topic, but fortunately many of us here can still respect one another and agree on other issues.
  #36  
Old 06-30-2009, 03:20 AM
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The concept of dispensations gets you on the right track. I find I hold a lot of the views of a hyperdispensationalist.

The key is that the nation of Israel was a son of God in a collective sense; Israelites were not individually sons of God. The nation of Israel was God's son.

That changed in Matthew 11. His invitation changed from on a national basis to on an individual basis. Israel as a nation was rejecting their Messiah so we are back to a remnant just like always happens at the end of a dispensation. Every dispensation has ended in man's failure so God moves on with the next phase of His plan.

In Matthew 11 we have the invitation to come to Jesus. It is directed toward individuals:

Matthew 11:28-30 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

The following parable fits what I am saying, I believe. Christ's individual appeal went first to the individual Jews who would believe (Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind) and then to individual gentiles (Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled).

Luke 14:16-24 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city (Jerusalem/ The Jews), and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. (Sounds like the people who responded to Jesus' earthly ministry to Israel)[/B]And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

Compare these verses:

And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Romans 11:25

This is a very complex subject. I'm not sure anybody fully understands it. I think people need to recognize the distinction between the mystery and the church. The church doesn't equal the mystery that Paul talks about. The church encompasses the mystery but the church is more than the mystery. The "church" includes the apostolic church and perhaps believers before Christ was sacrificed. That last part is definitely just a musing... . The mystery revealed to Paul is that gentiles would be saved apart from the ministry of Israel; that individuals would be indwelled by the Holy Spirit and would be equipped to keep the law in the spirit; that there would be no condemnation to those who were born of the Spirit and called to be sons of God (individually).

The church started out jewish

then transitioned to jewish but adding on a small number of gentiles

then transitioned to gentile when Paul's ministry to the gentiles started with a jewish component (the apostolic church)

then transitioned to no distinction between jew and gentile

It is apparent that covenant theologians have completely missed the boat. To paraphrase Tony, they came to a screeching halt at the reformation.

I certainly don't have the whole thing figured out but my husband and I am getting glimpses at least into what questions need to be asked and that we all have preconceived ideas that make it hard to see what the scriptures are telling us.

Then there's the confusion that arises because the word "gospel" means different things. I think what the word "gospel" means to most believers is John 3:16. That is the 'good news" that all of human history looks forward to and that eternity will look back on. Without this "gospel" it would be better for every man that he had never been born. But there is good news in the way God dispenses the ultimate good news to different people at different times. I'm not making this up. The Bible teaches this. The concept of gospel applies to more than one message.

I used to believe as Winman does when I was a brand new christian. I had no discernment whatsoever. I was a baby. I felt I had to shut out any new teaching because I was terrified of being deceived. I had so little discernment that I ended up in a cult, got out of that then right back in with a bunch of charismatic crazies. I'm probably only a child now but at least I'm eating solid food. Winman's not in a cult of which I am thankful. But I am wondering how long he has been a christian. All it takes is a simple prayer of faith to the Lord to show you the truth about a matter. He will do it if we ask Him. The Lord will open our understanding to His word if we will allow Him to.
  #37  
Old 06-30-2009, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by JOHN G View Post
Thanks brothers and sisters for the discussion. I lean towards Bro. Winman's position of one gospel. How does one reconcile these verses?


Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Paul's gospel (singular) has existed since the world began. One could say it is everlasting, and is synonymous with the gospel of Rev. 14.6.

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

The Gentiles were preached the gospel (singular) unto by Peter's mouth. How could Peter's gospel to the Gentiles be different than Paul's gospel to the Gentiles?

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

It is interesting that Paul mentions an angel from heaven. Is the angel of the everlasting gospel of Rev. 14:6 accursed?

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Peter was not living uprightly according to the truth of the gospel (singular), which gospel, if there is two?

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

I don't see how multiple gospels can coexist with Jesus' statement "to every creature".

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
1Co 15:11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

Paul clearly lays out the gospel (singular) here and says he (Paul) and they (the other apostles) preach (present tense) it.

Blessings to you all.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
John,

Paul obviously preached the gospel of Christ crucified. Nobody denies this fact. This is the same gospel the twelve Apostles to the circumcision preached.

Paul was an apostle born out of due time, he wasn't with Jesus during His earthly ministry. He believed on and was directly taught by the risen, glorified Christ who is seated in heavenly places. Jesus directly revealed the "mystery" to Paul that had been hidden since the beginning of the world:

Galatians 1:11-12 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

"Paul's gospel" is not the preaching of the cross although of course Paul preaches Christ crucified. Please notice Paul differentiates between "my gospel" and the preaching of Jesus Christ.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

That God had to come to die for the sins of the world was revealed in scripture as early as Genesis. Although not understood by Israel during Christ's earthly ministry, it was not a mystery kept secret since the world began.

The mystery revealed to Paul is the body of Christ made up of individuals who are indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit; saved wholly apart from God's program with Israel. No law. Only grace.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Colossians 1:21-29 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

The bold text below tells us exactly what "Paul's gospel" is:

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

If there is no distinction between the gospel of the Circumcision and the uncircumcism then why did Paul have to reveal to the leaders of the church of the circumcism the mystery that Christ revealed first and exclusively to Paul?

Galatians 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain

Paul and the apostleship to the circumcism clearly recognized the difference:

Galatians 2:7-10 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

And why did Paul have to withstand Peter to his face if there was no difference?

Galatians 2:11-21 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Were the apostleship to the circumcism in error regarding the temple practices and the ordinances they continued in ? I think not. Paul even continued in them until God showed him he was to preach only to the gentiles at a certain point.

Acts 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

The offer of the Kingdom of God was still open for a time. If national Israel would have accepted their Messiah He would have come back at that time and national Israel would once again have become the source of blessing to the gentiles. The change in emphasis from the gospel of the circumcism to Paul's gospel to the uncircumcism is transitional. The more fully we understand this the fewer difficult and seemily contradictory verses we encounter.

Last edited by greenbear; 06-30-2009 at 01:02 PM.
  #38  
Old 06-30-2009, 01:35 PM
JOHN G JOHN G is offline
 
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Hello GB,

Jesus' Gospel to Nicodemus
John 3:16 ... whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Peter's Gospel to Cornelius
Acts 10:43 .... whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Paul and Silas' Gospel to the Philippian Jailer
Acts 16:31 ...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved

Paul's Gospel to the Romans
Rom. 10:11 ... Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

GB said,
"Paul obviously preached the gospel of Christ crucified. Nobody denies this fact. This is the same gospel the twelve Apostles to the circumcision preached."
And then said,

"Paul and the apostleship to the circumcism clearly recognized the difference"

This seems contradictory.
  #39  
Old 06-30-2009, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by JOHN G View Post
Hello GB,

Jesus' Gospel to Nicodemus
John 3:16 ... whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Peter's Gospel to Cornelius
Acts 10:43 .... whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Paul and Silas' Gospel to the Philippian Jailer
Acts 16:31 ...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved

Paul's Gospel to the Romans
Rom. 10:11 ... Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

GB said,
"Paul obviously preached the gospel of Christ crucified. Nobody denies this fact. This is the same gospel the twelve Apostles to the circumcision preached."
And then said,

"Paul and the apostleship to the circumcism clearly recognized the difference"

This seems contradictory.
Hi John,

Quote:
GB said,
"Paul obviously preached the gospel of Christ crucified. Nobody denies this fact. This is the same gospel the twelve Apostles to the circumcision preached."
And then said,

"Paul and the apostleship to the circumcism clearly recognized the difference"

This seems contradictory.
It seems contradictory to you because you are not rightly dividing the scriptures. Paul refers to "his gospel" as being distinctive, a secret, a mystery, revealed directly from Christ only through him. If we don't recognize that Paul preaches BOTH the gospel of the cross of Christ and his distinctive gospel (which has been defined using Paul's own words so many times on this thread) you are left with contradictions.

Remember, "gospel" is a message of good news. Paul's gospel of the mystery that he got directly from Jesus is grace by faith alone apart from the law. It is the indwelling of the believer by the Holy Spirit. This dispensation is the believer apprehending salvation by doing nothing but believing on Christ's finished work on the cross. It's completely separate from the system that Israel had been under. See, it's not another gospel in the sense of the object of our faith which is Christ paying the price for our sins, it's the new way God is dispensing His salvation. Salvation has always been of grace, but now it is by grace through faith alone, not by works. Faith is not shown by our works in this dispensation that Paul's gospel describes. You could say grace=faith alone in Paul's gospel which is the dispensation of grace. And grace=faith + works in other dispensations. Of course, the works are not keeping the Law perfectly (which is impossible for any man but Christ) or it would not be grace. It is simply performing what God requires in that dispensation. This dispensation the only requirement is faith.

Paul's distinctive gospel is one of how God administers His grace rather than the source of His grace (Christ's finished work on the cross) which has always been the same. "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12

Last edited by greenbear; 06-30-2009 at 02:40 PM.
  #40  
Old 06-30-2009, 04:22 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Greenbear said

Quote:

I used to believe as Winman does when I was a brand new christian. I had no discernment whatsoever. I was a baby. I felt I had to shut out any new teaching because I was terrified of being deceived. I had so little discernment that I ended up in a cult, got out of that then right back in with a bunch of charismatic crazies. I'm probably only a child now but at least I'm eating solid food. Winman's not in a cult of which I am thankful. But I am wondering how long he has been a christian. All it takes is a simple prayer of faith to the Lord to show you the truth about a matter. He will do it if we ask Him. The Lord will open our understanding to His word if we will allow Him to.
Well, to answer your question. I have been a Christian for 44 years, having received Christ as a boy of 11.

I love the way you dispensationalists whether ultra, hyper, or whatever you call yourselves, believe yourselves to have superior knowledge and discernment over other Christians. It is just as several of the articles written by famous men of God have said.

From Dr. H.A. Ironside:

Quote:

Having had most intimate acquaintance with Bullingerism as taught by many for the last forty years, I have no hesitancy in saying that its fruits are evil. It has produced a tremendous crop of heresies throughout the length and breadth of this and other lands, it has divided Christians and wrecked churches and assemblies without number; it has lifted up its votaries in intellectual and spiritual pride to an appalling extent, so that they look with supreme contempt upon Christians who do not accept their peculiar views; and in most instances where it has been long tolerated, it has absolutely throttled Gospel effort at home and sown discord on missionary fields abroad. So true are these things of this system that I have no hesitancy in saying it is an absolutely Satanic perversion of the truth. Instead of rightly dividing the Word, I shall seek to show that these teachers wrongly divide the Word, and that their propaganda is anything but conducive to spirituality and enlightenment in divine things.
Of course, I'm sure you believe yourself to be far wiser, more knowledgeable, spiritual, and having more discernment than this famous preacher.

If you would read his 7 chapter article, he will prove with scripture (rightly divided) that your belief system is absolutely full of error. Here is the article if you care (or should I say dare?) to read it.

http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/wrongly1.html

Pastor Ironside was absolutely correct about those who follow this false teaching. They are full of intellectual and spiritual pride to an appalling extent.
 

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