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  #31  
Old 07-22-2009, 11:20 AM
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Bro. Brandon,

I did have one sincere question.

What does the word pastor mean?
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  #32  
Old 07-22-2009, 11:34 AM
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We recently watched a documentary on wild horses. When herding them they release a "Judas Horse" that is trained to run for the corral and the other wild horses follow.

Sheep also being a herd animal have similar instincts:

Quote:
Sheep follow each other so reliably that special names apply to the different roles sheep play in a flock. One calls a sheep that roams furthest away from the others an outlier. This sheep undertakes to go out further away from the safety of the flock to graze, while taking a chance that a predator, such as a wolf, will attack it first because of its isolation.

Another sheep, the bellwether, which never goes first but always follows an outlier, signals to the others that they may follow in safety. When it moves, the others will also move. The tendency to act as outliers or as bellwethers, or to stick in the middle of the flock, seems to stay with sheep throughout their whole life
I wouldn't call a bellwether, or outlier, a shepherd (or "under-shepherd") even though they "lead" the flock. The bellwether is just another sheep that is usually one of the oldest of the flock making it wiser to the hazards of the field. It leads not through driving the flock (like sheep dogs) but by example.

Calling a pastor a "under-shepherd" puts them outside of or above the flock.

Last edited by JaeByrd; 07-22-2009 at 11:57 AM.
  #33  
Old 07-22-2009, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda S. View Post
What does the word pastor mean?
Biblically, it is a title of an office, defined by God this way:
Jeremiah 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
The word only appears once in the New Testament in the phrase "pastors and teachers" (Eph 4:11) which lines up with this definition.
  #34  
Old 07-22-2009, 02:26 PM
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From Wiki: [smilie mine ]
Quote:
A bellwether is any entity in a given arena that serves to create or influence trends or to presage future happenings.

The term is derived from the Middle English bellewether and refers to the practice of placing a bell around the neck of a castrated ram (a wether) leading its flock of sheep. The movements of the flock could be noted by hearing the bell before the flock was in sight.
  #35  
Old 07-22-2009, 09:48 PM
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Bro. Brandon and anyone else who wishes to chime in:

Quote:
Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.
Who is "all their flocks" referring to? Are you suggesting that this verse means that the pastor happens to be a shepherd and therefore because he is brutish that his flocks will be scattered?????

And if all the points made previously as to the fact that a pastor is to feed the sheep and be an overseer, and leader then none of it makes any sense? How does a sheep feed another sheep?? How does he care for the flock if he is one of the flock so to speak? In another place Paul says

1Co 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

A rod? So, he's not a shepherd, but God let's him use His rod? (Figuratively speaking)

And how come most of the verses with pastor in it also have a reference to sheep? There must be some connection there?


Again in Jeremiah 23:1-4
1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.



I thought the Lord was the only shepherd?!


Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

One shepherd? As opposed to how many other shepherds? Who are these other shepherds?


Obviously all of you know that the very definition of pastor is shepherd. It IS what is means, but that doesn't seem to be admissible.

I am honestly trying to understand the reasoning. I have never heard this taught such a way.

Last edited by Amanda S.; 07-22-2009 at 10:17 PM.
  #36  
Old 07-22-2009, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda S. View Post
Who is "all their flocks" referring to?
Have you ever called your church "my church?" Does that mean it is under you or that you are somehow separate from everyone else in the church?

You asked for the definition of pastor, and I gave you the closest thing the Bible has to a definition of the word.

Quote:
Are you suggesting that this verse means that the pastor happens to be a shepherd and therefore because he is brutish that his flocks will be scattered?????
That sentence makes no sense to me. I don't understand what you are asking, since I maintain that the pastor is not a shepherd -- unless you are reading a modern non-KJV (think about that for a minute!).

Quote:
And if all the points made previously as to the fact that a pastor is to feed the sheep and be an overseer, and leader then none of it makes any sense? How does a sheep feed another sheep?? How does he care for the flock if he is one of the flock so to speak? In another place Paul says
And here is the crux of the matter: you are trying to defend Nicolaism and set the pastor as someone separate from the church he is supposed to be serving.

Quote:
1Co 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

A rod? So, he's not a shepherd, but God let's him use His rod? (Figuratively speaking)
I'm no shepherd, yet the Bible tells me to use a rod (Pr 23:13). Also, nobody alive today is in the same position Paul was in, so the comparison doesn't stand. (Also, I wonder if you could find a verse that ever calls Paul a pastor.)

Quote:
And how come most of the verses with pastor in it also have a reference to sheep? There must be some connection there?
Of course there is a connection. That doesn't make pastor synonymous with shepherd.

Quote:
Again in Jeremiah 23:1-4
1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.
You're not seriously applying these verses about Israel to the Church, are you? Besides, that passage proves pastors and shepherds are different.

The pastors are replaced with shepherds in the passage you quote.

Quote:
I thought the Lord was the only shepherd?!
Insofar as the Body of Christ is concerned, he is the only one called a shepherd. (My prior statements should be understood in that context -- sorry if I wasn't clear enough.)

Quote:

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
This verse also gives a hint as to the difference between Israel and the Church. Of which are you?

Quote:
Obviously all of you know that the very definition of pastor is shepherd.
There you go again, using that word. Obviously, it is not obvious.
  #37  
Old 07-22-2009, 10:57 PM
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Amanda S. Amanda S. is offline
 
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Bro. Brandon,

I am not trying to defend anything, but understand the thought process. Now that I've exhausted all the Scripture on the subject, I feel as if I understand your position.


Quote:
You Quote:
Are you suggesting that this verse means that the pastor happens to be a shepherd and therefore because he is brutish that his flocks will be scattered?????
That sentence makes no sense to me. I don't understand what you are asking, since I maintain that the pastor is not a shepherd -- unless you are reading a modern non-KJV (think about that for a minute!).
Well, with the "my church" comment I see how you come to read that passage as you do.

I read nothing but a KJB...

I am not intending to defend any position at this point. Just wanting to know how you read the passages as opposed to how I've understood them. I honestly have never used the term shepherd in reference to any pastor and I don't think I've heard it used many times in the churches I am in.

Quote:
And here is the crux of the matter: you are trying to defend Nicolaism and set the pastor as someone separate from the church he is supposed to be serving.
I can see how you would think that, but honestly I don't believe that. LoL I'm not even sure I can correctly pronounce that. I have not disagreed at all with anyone's duties of a pastor, elder or deacon and George did a great study on the church that I agreed with wholeheartedly (until the end in which I need to process a bit more )

Being a pastor's wife for 10+ yrs I am very well aquainted with the "position" of a pastor and being a servant to the people, an ensample and have seen my husband lead humbly yet with authority when teaching the Bible. Bro. Brandon I don't think we would disagree on that topic.

Quote:
You're not seriously applying these verses about Israel to the Church, are you? Besides, that passage proves pastors and shepherds are different.
No not applying them, but pulling out all the stops so to speak LoL And I see what you are saying, pastor is one - shepherd is another.

Thank you, I've no more questions...................tonight
  #38  
Old 07-22-2009, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Tim View Post
From Wiki: [smilie mine ]
They don't always castrate them. Depends on the flock dynamics. Sometimes the bellwether is an ewe. Doesn't mean I'm advocating females in roles of leadership.

With all the talk of sheep, flocks, and shepherds it was interesting to read about them the workings of a sheep farm. I found some interesting observations from sheepherders talking about this very subject.
  #39  
Old 07-23-2009, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Tim View Post
And while we are being specific:
The I Peter 5 passage is speaking to "elders" (plural), which is the broadest, inclusive title given to church "leaders". There is no reference to individual pastors being over local churches. Within the church are "elder" believers who have been given to responsibility of leading by "ensample" those who are the "younger" (I Peter 5:5)

P.S. As prospective, I am a Baptist pastor. I am a leader, but not the boss, of the church in which God has placed me.
I have always thought of a "bishop" as a "pastor;" is that the concensus here?

So, in I Timothy 3:1-7, there is only ONE bishop over the church as evidenced by the fact that his job is likened to that of A man RULING over his own house (v.5.) [Being the "ruler" makes him the "boss!"] Of course, a husband/father in authority is not just one of a few different sheep in the house! And, the bishop is not necessarily an "elder;" Timothy was younger (I Tim. 4:12.)

Looking at this, I saw something else: the wording in I Peter 2:25 is interesting concerning this subject - "the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls." We already know that there are lower-case "bishops," and it logically follows from this verse that there would be lower-case "shepherds." (This is related to - and supports - my post #30.)

As an aside, in my reading this morning, I came across Psalm 111:9 - "...holy and reverend is his name." I believe that's the only reference to "reverend" in the Bible, and it says God's name is reverend. So, I think it's a much more serious issue for Pastors to put "reverend" in their title than to compare themselves scripturally to a shepherd. I would go so far as to say that calling someone "Reverend so-and-so" would be downright blasphemous!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com
  #40  
Old 07-24-2009, 12:38 PM
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Amanda S. Amanda S. is offline
 
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Hello there Sis. Pam!

You brought up a great point! Thanks to it's 'built in dictionary' as my husband calls it I Peter 2:25 is defining bishop as shepherd...Unless one wants to change this standard of defining the words in our KJB. I was intrigued by the capital letters here...nowhere else is bishop capitalized...

There are many examples of the KJB defining itself but here is one example that I love:

Genesis 24:16 And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up.

II Chr 34:10 And they put it in the hand of the workmen that had the oversight of the house of the LORD, and they gave it to the workmen that wrought in the house of the LORD, to repair and amend the house:

Ps 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Those are just a few, but taking everything that is said in the Bible about a shepherd, a bishop, a deacon, a pastor, leading, feeding, and caring and putting it all together it makes perfect sense.

Consider this - I Samuel 21:7 Now a certain man of the servants of Saul was there that day, detained before the LORD; and his name was Doeg, an Edomite, the chiefest of the herdmen that belonged to Saul.


Above is an example of there being a chief shepherd...remember I Peter 5:4? The Chief Shepherd? If there is a chief, one can gather that there are under shepherds especially if there is a large number of herds.
 

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