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Old 07-16-2009, 12:30 PM
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Amanda S. Amanda S. is offline
 
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Default Hate the sin, love the sinner

I recently posted a status on my FaceBook that Mahatma Ghandi is actually the one that is quoted as saying "Hate the sin, love the sinner" to which several responded that it was a godly attitude to have...

Is there Scripture that supports this specifically? If so, how does one reconcile this "godly attitude" with Psalm 5:5?
"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity."
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Old 07-16-2009, 02:36 PM
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It's not about reconciling the Bible and Ghandi. It matters not what Ghandi says or said.

It's about the Pauline Epistles and the rest of the word.

Psalm 5:5 is true. But in the OT, the words "sinners" is used mainly of the gentiles and those israelites that chose to worship idols. In the NT, it becomes a common term for all men. Psalm 5:5 is also written BEFORE the crucifixion

The Pauline Epistles and the gospel and epistles of John speak of Jesus being propitious to the point of infinite. Therefore, if Jesus is the propitiation, and God is satisfied with the blood sacrifice, there is no need for God to be angry NOW, as all man can freely come to Him, because Christ has removed the barrier between God and man. Throughout the Johannine & Pauline Epistles, we find many verses on love. John 3:16, Romans 5:8, Galatians 2:20 to name a few. God's love to all sinners was demonstrated on the cross, and God's eyes are fixed upon the blood and upon His Son, which appeases his wrath. However, when a man stands before the Throne of God without the blood, that's a whole other story, and I wouldn't want to be that man in that day.

There is nothing stopping a sinner coming to God today, because God is satisfied with Jesus Christ. God is not mad.

This teaching that God is continually mad is Roman Catholic. I find little scripture except for two Psalms. It seems whenever this topic comes up, rightly dividing gets thrown out the window and God becomes a God of hate, because of two verses written in and for another dispensation.

HOWEVER, having said that, I do not think it is acceptable to tell people that they are OKAY IN their sin. But rather than tell them "God hates you" as some streetpreachers do, a better solution would be to first warn them of coming judgment because of who they are (sinners), and what they have done (sins), and then to expain God's grace to them this hour, and not to tarry, for the blood is there for them to wash in, but when they stand before God, it won't be.

God bless
Luke

EDIT: An additional note - as I spoke before about rightly dividing, the context of the Psalm is "STAND IN GOD'S SIGHT". One could take this to mean - before the Great White Throne. There are many fools who unrighteously stand before God and blaspheme his name today, but nothing happens to them... but something will, when they are in God's sight.
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Old 07-16-2009, 03:14 PM
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I think you're right about this verse referring to the GWT Judgement, Luke. The entire Psalm seems to support that David is looking to Christ ruling as a King on earth. Especially verse 4 :

Psalms 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalms 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Thanks for pointing that out.
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Old 07-16-2009, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbear View Post
I think you're right about this verse referring to the GWT Judgement, Luke. The entire Psalm seems to support that David is looking to Christ ruling as a King on earth. Especially verse 4 :

Psalms 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalms 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Thanks for pointing that out.
Oops. The GWT judgement is after the Millennial Kingdom.
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Old 07-16-2009, 04:14 PM
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Amanda S. Amanda S. is offline
 
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Quote:
It's not about reconciling the Bible and Ghandi. It matters not what Ghandi says or said.
True, I was just giving a bit of history...

Are you saying that God only hated before the cruxifiction? And that Christ's death on the cross erased His hate? Obviously it erased the hate for those who accepted the gift of salvation as His blood covers all sin. But I am not convinced that Christ doesn't hate those who reject the sacrifice of His only Son.

I do agree that the context of the GWT Judgement seems to put this verse into perspective. Thanks for pointing that out...I'll study on that a bit more.

So often though people lightly throw around "Hate the sin, not the sinner" and really they are accusing you of hate because you are "condeming" a lifestyle or sin. Love to them is to ignore their sin and accept the person.

But to point out more Scripture David also says:

Quote:
Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
I am not suggesting hollering at passersby on the street that God hates them or that they are hated. That certainly would not win them over. You stated that very well when you said:

Quote:
...a better solution would be to first warn them of coming judgment because of who they are (sinners), and what they have done (sins), and then to expain God's grace to them this hour, and not to tarry, for the blood is there for them to wash in, but when they stand before God, it won't be.
It is hard to really explain what I am getting at...I am not suggesting we as Christians go around with hatred in our hearts toward anyone. But rather dispel this idea that God is smiling down with pleasure at His creation and is not one we should fear.
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Old 07-16-2009, 04:19 PM
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Yeah, the saying is stupid. It is usually used by Christians to justify some pet sin they have - "Oh, it is okay that I do this, God loves me, he hates my sin, but he loves me". Or it is used by the world, but never in regards to any actual kind of sin, but always as a rebuke to Christians who are preaching against sin.

God is definitely not happy with sinners, but His anger has been appeased. He is not fuming mad because the blood is on the mercy seat, for ALL men (1 John 2:1-2).
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Old 07-16-2009, 05:10 PM
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David must be looking towards the New Earth in that passage.
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Old 07-17-2009, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
It's not about reconciling the Bible and Ghandi. It matters not what Ghandi says or said.

It's about the Pauline Epistles and the rest of the word.

Psalm 5:5 is true. But in the OT, the words "sinners" is used mainly of the gentiles and those israelites that chose to worship idols. In the NT, it becomes a common term for all men. Psalm 5:5 is also written BEFORE the crucifixion

The Pauline Epistles and the gospel and epistles of John speak of Jesus being propitious to the point of infinite. Therefore, if Jesus is the propitiation, and God is satisfied with the blood sacrifice, there is no need for God to be angry NOW, as all man can freely come to Him, because Christ has removed the barrier between God and man. Throughout the Johannine & Pauline Epistles, we find many verses on love. John 3:16, Romans 5:8, Galatians 2:20 to name a few. God's love to all sinners was demonstrated on the cross, and God's eyes are fixed upon the blood and upon His Son, which appeases his wrath. However, when a man stands before the Throne of God without the blood, that's a whole other story, and I wouldn't want to be that man in that day.

There is nothing stopping a sinner coming to God today, because God is satisfied with Jesus Christ. God is not mad.

This teaching that God is continually mad is Roman Catholic. I find little scripture except for two Psalms. It seems whenever this topic comes up, rightly dividing gets thrown out the window and God becomes a God of hate, because of two verses written in and for another dispensation.

HOWEVER, having said that, I do not think it is acceptable to tell people that they are OKAY IN their sin. But rather than tell them "God hates you" as some streetpreachers do, a better solution would be to first warn them of coming judgment because of who they are (sinners), and what they have done (sins), and then to expain God's grace to them this hour, and not to tarry, for the blood is there for them to wash in, but when they stand before God, it won't be.

God bless
Luke

EDIT: An additional note - as I spoke before about rightly dividing, the context of the Psalm is "STAND IN GOD'S SIGHT". One could take this to mean - before the Great White Throne. There are many fools who unrighteously stand before God and blaspheme his name today, but nothing happens to them... but something will, when they are in God's sight.
No truer words were ever spoken, Luke. This is why I despise the ministry of Kirk Cameron so much, is his condemnatory manner with sinners and why I have refused some people to participate in the street ministry we have here.

I don't mean to stray from Amanda's question, I think she brings up however what is most important in the most important thing we exist for: Bearig Christ's name to Gentiles, kings, and children of Israel. I know of nowhere the phrase is found as quoted in Scripture with the exact wording, the precept is found in the Scriptures:

Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
II Cor. 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

This is no "great commission" in the Scriptures, there are seven "great commissions" in the Scriptures. Five are to the 12 Apostles regarding the restoration of Israel, one to Paul personally, the last one in II Cor. is found above and the only operative one today.

Luke, I sense a compassion in sister Amanda for the lost, and I know your heart, and I'd be proud to have either or both on the street with me.

Grace and peace

Tony
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Old 07-17-2009, 01:53 AM
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It's not an issue I want to divide over either Bro Tony

I know for a fact that Cody and Vendetta Ride both believe God hates sinners (unbelievers) present tense. And yet both of them DO NOT tell sinners God hates them, unlike some street preachers I can think of and will publicly rebuke if they ever show their rants on this forum again (a few of them love to film their foul mouthed rants and then share them amongst the brethren, hoping for a few amens).

I have spent much time in email with one of them, even having some fellowship, helping him with some personal issues and praising God together, but he is unrepentant in his attitude. A recent facebook quote from him was "<name omitted> spent some time with some christians fellowshipping over the doctrine of God's hatred towards sinners".

That must have been an edifying fellowship...

"Praise the Lord God hates sinners"
"Thank you Lord that we are not like this here publican!"

Anyway, regardless of whether you believe God hates sinners now, or his anger is satisfied and God does not hate sinners now, we can all agree on one thing, without the blood of Christ applied, no man can stand before God, small or great. But our attitude towards sinners today is "God commendeth His love towards us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us". And if that is God's attitude, it should be ours as well, and our message.

God bless
  #10  
Old 07-22-2009, 02:03 PM
custer custer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
It's not about reconciling the Bible and Ghandi. It matters not what Ghandi says or said.

It's about the Pauline Epistles and the rest of the word.

Psalm 5:5 is true. But in the OT, the words "sinners" is used mainly of the gentiles and those israelites that chose to worship idols. In the NT, it becomes a common term for all men. Psalm 5:5 is also written BEFORE the crucifixion

The Pauline Epistles and the gospel and epistles of John speak of Jesus being propitious to the point of infinite. Therefore, if Jesus is the propitiation, and God is satisfied with the blood sacrifice, there is no need for God to be angry NOW, as all man can freely come to Him, because Christ has removed the barrier between God and man. Throughout the Johannine & Pauline Epistles, we find many verses on love. John 3:16, Romans 5:8, Galatians 2:20 to name a few. God's love to all sinners was demonstrated on the cross, and God's eyes are fixed upon the blood and upon His Son, which appeases his wrath. However, when a man stands before the Throne of God without the blood, that's a whole other story, and I wouldn't want to be that man in that day.

There is nothing stopping a sinner coming to God today, because God is satisfied with Jesus Christ. God is not mad.

This teaching that God is continually mad is Roman Catholic. I find little scripture except for two Psalms. It seems whenever this topic comes up, rightly dividing gets thrown out the window and God becomes a God of hate, because of two verses written in and for another dispensation.

HOWEVER, having said that, I do not think it is acceptable to tell people that they are OKAY IN their sin. But rather than tell them "God hates you" as some streetpreachers do, a better solution would be to first warn them of coming judgment because of who they are (sinners), and what they have done (sins), and then to expain God's grace to them this hour, and not to tarry, for the blood is there for them to wash in, but when they stand before God, it won't be.

God bless
Luke

EDIT: An additional note - as I spoke before about rightly dividing, the context of the Psalm is "STAND IN GOD'S SIGHT". One could take this to mean - before the Great White Throne. There are many fools who unrighteously stand before God and blaspheme his name today, but nothing happens to them... but something will, when they are in God's sight.
The verses stating who the Lord hates (Ps. 5:5, 10:3, 11:5 - for starters) cannot be dismissed dispensationally! I cannot find one thing in the Bible that God says he hates at one time, but later changes his mind! (Like once something is an abomination TO GOD, it is always an abomination TO GOD!) For instance, look at the things that God hates in Prov. 6:16-19 and Prov. 8:13 - yes, we are in the "age of grace," but God STILL hates what he says he hates! (Also, notice in Prov. 6:16 that when the LORD "hate[s]" something, it IS an "abomination unto him." The abominations TO GOD are a great study; one in relation to this topic - Prov. 17:15.)

So, in addition to those things in Proverbs, the LORD hates "all workers of iniquity" and "the wicked and him that loveth violence" (Ps. 5:5 and 11:5,) and he abhors "the bloody and deceitful man" and "the covetous" (Ps. 5:6 and 10:3.) Jesus' attitude toward the wicked is consistent (of course) with God's HATE as evidenced in Matthew 22:18...he didn't show a lot of love to the Pharisees when he "perceived their wickedness!"

There is a difference in someone who commits a wicked act, feels remorse, and repents - and someone who IS "wicked." The "wicked" person that the LORD hates (present tense) is bent on wickedness; he loves to live that way and has no desire to change or repent. God loves a repentant sinner - he STILL hates an unrepentant one...John 3:36b - "...he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." This is present tense...this person is "condemned already" (John 3:18.)

"For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles..." (Rom. 2:24) - the people who "do not obey the truth" in Romans 2. God's name is blasphemed when people do not obey the truth every day (Isaiah 52:5,) and "God is angry with the wicked every day." (Ps. 7:11) The key is not a timetable when God might have stopped being angry - the key is to believe it like it's written - "God is angry WITH THE WICKED every day." It should not be hard to understand that God would be angry that his name is blasphemed, and in Isaiah 52 and Romans 2, it is happening continually every day!

Pam
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