Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-15-2009, 05:57 AM
larryb's Avatar
larryb larryb is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19
Default John Owen Quote

“Let it be remembered, that the vulgar copy we use, was the public possession of many generations; that upon the invention of printing, it was in actual authority throughout the world, with them that used and understood that language….men may, if they please, take pains to inform the world, wherein such and such copies are corrupted or mistaken, but to impose their known failings on us as various lections, is of course not to be approved….[t]he generality of learned men among Protestants are not yet infected with this leaven…And if this change of judgment which hath been long insinuating itself, by the curiosity and boldness of critics, should break in also on the Protestant world, and be avowed in public works, it is easy to conjecture what the end will be. We went from Rome under the conduct of the purity of the originals, I wish none have a mind to return thither again, under the pretence of their corruption.” John Owen, Of the Integrity and Purity of the Hebrew and Greek Text of the Scripture, pg 473 to 477
  #2  
Old 07-15-2009, 07:08 AM
larryb's Avatar
larryb larryb is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19
Default Another quote from Owen

"Of all the inventions of Satan to draw off the minds of men from the Word of God, this of decrying the authority of the originals seems to me the most pernicious."
  #3  
Old 07-15-2009, 07:28 AM
chette777's Avatar
chette777 chette777 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Puerto Princesa City, Palawan Philippines
Posts: 1,431
Default

Larry

do you believe the King James Bible is a pure preserved inspired word of God?

without error?
  #4  
Old 07-15-2009, 07:33 AM
larryb's Avatar
larryb larryb is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
Larry

do you believe the King James Bible is a pure preserved inspired word of God?

without error?
I believe that the texts underlying the KJV are pure, preserved, and infallible.

Further, i believe that the KJV is a faithful translation of those underlying texts, and is therefore also pure, preserved (for the English speaking peoples), and infallible.
  #5  
Old 07-15-2009, 08:06 AM
bibleprotector's Avatar
bibleprotector bibleprotector is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 587
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryb View Post
I believe that the texts underlying the KJV are pure, preserved, and infallible.
The Word of God has been pure, preserved and infallible in Hebrew and Greek. But plenty of Protestants, Puritans and us today have not seen or used the Hebrew and Greek.

The problem is that there is no Hebrew text which is in one volume somewhere on earth right now which is perfect. The same for the New Testament in Greek.

Now, if you will receive it, the Scripture says:

Ro 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith

Do you realise that NATIONS are supposed to be obedient to the very words of God? How can that be, if there are differences in Textus Receptus editions? Surely, the solution must be that in the latter days glory of the Church, there would be one Bible made common for believers.

And you will find that English Puritans believed that they were directly part of this providential working of God.

Again, why turn back to Hebrew, when it is the Protestant Christians of the latter days who have the highest truth. Even Puritans like Joseph Mede recognised this, when he spoke of the witnessing to the Jews in the latter days.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Therefore, the Scripture is not locked in or limited to or authoritative only merely in the original languages, but that the Church, particularly that which is of the Anglo-Protestant tradition, and the King James Bible best fits, that it should be the way by which the furtherest inroads into the world should be made by the Gospel in the latter days, as has already been seen since the Reformation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryb View Post
Further, i believe that the KJV is a faithful translation of those underlying texts, and is therefore also pure, preserved (for the English speaking peoples), and infallible.
Since the King James Bible is an independent text, it can only be said to be faithful to the autographs, for that there are variations among the original language copies which exist. Therefore, the authority of Scripture cannot be merely based on its faithfulness to the past, but that it also is presently shown by signal providences to be the Word of God. No one is saved by believing in the Autographs. If you look at 1 Peter 1:23, 25, people are saved by believing the Word right now.

By examining the KJB on its own terms you will see that it is self-validating, self-authenticating. Yes, many have said it is a good Bible, and the best translation, but we should see that it is the very Word of God today, and that if the original languages were no longer understood (as they increasingly are MISunderstood the more modernists work with them), we can be certain that God has not failed to deliver His Word to the end of the world, and to the ends of the earth, that is, by the King James Bible itself.

It is possible for us to show the purity of the King James Bible by studying the King James Bible right now.
  #6  
Old 07-17-2009, 11:17 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default

Hi Folks,

I know this may take us afield a bit, but I do have two questions for Matthew.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bibleprotector
there is no Hebrew text which is in one volume somewhere on earth right now which is perfect. The same for the New Testament in Greek.
Is this an assertion that you feel is provable, that you can prove ? Please share precisely what is the basis for your saying with certainty that that no volume on earth today in Greek or Hebrew is the perfect word of God.

(Perhaps your point is that the Hebrew would be imperfect on the NT, and similarly the Greek would be imperfect on the OT, however that is not at all clear from what you wrote.)

Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bibleprotector
Even Puritans like Joseph Mede recognised this, when he spoke of the witnessing to the Jews in the latter days.
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
If you could share the book and page reference, it would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Shalom,
Steven
  #7  
Old 07-15-2009, 08:09 AM
Cloudwalker's Avatar
Cloudwalker Cloudwalker is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 40
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryb View Post
“Let it be remembered, that the vulgar copy we use, was the public possession of many generations; that upon the invention of printing, it was in actual authority throughout the world, with them that used and understood that language….men may, if they please, take pains to inform the world, wherein such and such copies are corrupted or mistaken, but to impose their known failings on us as various lections, is of course not to be approved….[t]he generality of learned men among Protestants are not yet infected with this leaven…And if this change of judgment which hath been long insinuating itself, by the curiosity and boldness of critics, should break in also on the Protestant world, and be avowed in public works, it is easy to conjecture what the end will be. We went from Rome under the conduct of the purity of the originals, I wish none have a mind to return thither again, under the pretence of their corruption.” John Owen, Of the Integrity and Purity of the Hebrew and Greek Text of the Scripture, pg 473 to 477
I'm sorry but this is one of the reasons why I absolutely reject and detest Calvinism...They hold the writings of the reformers as inspired and infallible and also...they exalt these men to the point of worship...Augustine, John Calvin, Martin Luther, Charles Spurgeon, RC Sproul, James White and on and on it goes.

No offense Larry but you obviously have an agenda here and that's to spread your reformed theology...but I call it a doctrine of devils, I'm not buying what you're selling, thanks anyways, I'll stick with the word of God and not man's opinion and interpretation.

It's quite scary.
  #8  
Old 07-15-2009, 08:54 AM
PaulB's Avatar
PaulB PaulB is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Northwest of England
Posts: 158
Default Larry B

Hi Larry, Thanks for your post.

As I see it, history plays a major part in the way we come to our conclusions, but we can’t form those conclusions at the expense of what was destined to follow (the history that followed afterwards). Whether it be the past, the present or the future they are all sections of God’s eternal plan to speak to the hearts of common day folk. The Waldensians, Tyndale and onwards fought for and preserved the sacred text which finally found its universal form in the KJB (after which was nothing).

If we don’t have the perfectly preserved word of God today in 2009 then no one at any time has ever had them, but if we do have them (as we KJB believers affirm) then we’ve always had them. Only the KJB camp uphold this belief, every other camp has to find a compromise at some point in their profession. The truth of the matter is that God has kept His promise and this forum testifies to the reality of that. It isn’t about underlying manuscripts (i.e. museum preservation) but the word of God in the hands of those who believe it to be what it claims to be.

God bless

PaulB
  #9  
Old 07-15-2009, 05:33 PM
Jassy's Avatar
Jassy Jassy is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 299
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulB View Post
Hi Larry, Thanks for your post.

As I see it, history plays a major part in the way we come to our conclusions, but we can’t form those conclusions at the expense of what was destined to follow (the history that followed afterwards). Whether it be the past, the present or the future they are all sections of God’s eternal plan to speak to the hearts of common day folk. The Waldensians, Tyndale and onwards fought for and preserved the sacred text which finally found its universal form in the KJB (after which was nothing).

If we don’t have the perfectly preserved word of God today in 2009 then no one at any time has ever had them, but if we do have them (as we KJB believers affirm) then we’ve always had them. Only the KJB camp uphold this belief, every other camp has to find a compromise at some point in their profession. The truth of the matter is that God has kept His promise and this forum testifies to the reality of that. It isn’t about underlying manuscripts (i.e. museum preservation) but the word of God in the hands of those who believe it to be what it claims to be.
God bless

PaulB
[Emphasis above mine...]
Amen brother PaulB! I agree with you. We HAVE the TRUE Word of God, infallable, and in our hands, here in 2009. I believe that with all of my heart, because I believe in God, and He does what He says He will do!! And, OH!! How BLESSED we are to have God's Word. I will always praise Him and give GLORY to Him for inspiring and preserving His Word for us. What a JOY it is to read the beautiful KJ Bible!

Jassy
  #10  
Old 07-16-2009, 10:28 AM
PaulB's Avatar
PaulB PaulB is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Northwest of England
Posts: 158
Default Jassy

Thanks for your comments Jassy

There is nothing that brings me greater pleasure than for someone to glorify God for what He has said and done. If I write an article or a response to another article and that ends up with God being praised for His wonders and His goodness then I feel like jumping over the moon!

At times the virtual memory on my pc runs too low and when I’m typing out something for the forum a letter or sometimes a word goes missing (which makes my English look poor). But the responses that I get give me the confidence that the general gist of what I am saying is coming across.
I have downloaded something called “Memstat” that seems to be helping a little.

The way I see it is just like I said on the previous post and history bears witness to the fact that the word of God has always been in existence or that it never was in existence at all.
Only God’s enemies are the ones who have argued against this up until the birth of the “science” of textual criticism came along in the 1800s. And as a result of this newly developed “science” (the product and trophy of unsaved philosophers), a believer is reckoned to be an unlearned fool voicing from ignorance if they adhere to the doctrine that the body of Christ has always held to (i.e. the preservation of sacred Scripture).

If we don’t have the preserved words of God today then my question is – at what point in history did the church surrender such a fundamental element to its existence? – how did the entire church (that was spreading around the earth manage to lose them all at once in such a collective way?)
I can understand that the enemies of the gospel may have burned some of them (like they did in the reformation) – but why even do that if they had already gone missing before the dark ages?

Now, if they hadn’t gone missing before that time then the people who died for them must have possessed them otherwise they wouldn’t have laid down their lives so that we could possess what they knew to be corrupt! And if the church (not only had them) but lived by them for guidance (and to put their enemies to flight) during the reformation then there is no argument that those Scriptures are still in our hands today which is exactly what we believe is present in the KJB.

The only thing that has happened is that an unholy counterpart has been developed and established to oppose the position of those whose foundation is contrary to those who wish to rule the hearts and minds of the populous. This is not just a 21st century battle it is a war that has been going on since Adam and Eve were given the first words that God voiced to humanity – the only difference is that the voices are now coming from the ones who claim to believe the words of God.

God bless

PaulB
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:48 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®, Copyright vBulletin Solutions Inc.

Website © AV1611.Com.
Posts represent only the opinions of users of this forum and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the webmaster.

Software for Believing Bible Study

 
Contact Us AV1611.Com