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  #31  
Old 04-27-2009, 09:31 AM
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This is my personal observation, but having attended several Bible conferences and searched the internet on both sides, I noticed several things why KJV believers chose to believe whether or not Paul wrote Hebrews:

1. Those who believe that even the titles, headings, and postscripts in the KJV are inspired say Paul wrote Hebrews because the title says so.
2. Those who believe that Paul preached two gospels - Kingdom Gospel and Grace Gospel - say that Paul, at first, wrote Hebrews and preached the Kingdom Gospel.
3. Those who believe that the text of the KJV is inspired but the headings are not say that Paul could not have written Hebrews for dispensational reasons.
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  #32  
Old 04-27-2009, 09:43 AM
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God the Holy Spirit is the author of the book of Hebrews. Who he chose to pen the words is immaterial. Why? Because He did not have that person identified.
  #33  
Old 04-27-2009, 09:58 AM
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I'm not convinced of the authorship of Hebrews either way, but this verse seems to indicate Paul did not write Hebrews:
2 Thessalonians 3:17 The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.
Hebrews is not signed, so either Paul did not write Hebrews, or we should not consider Hebrews an "epistle." If Paul did write it, it certainly has a very different dispensational placement than his other letters.

Obviously, the Bible Believer does not need to settle the question of who penned Hebrews, because we know the ultimate author is the Holy Spirit.
  #34  
Old 04-27-2009, 01:21 PM
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Personally, I think that Paul was indeed the writer, God the Author.
The idea that its not an epistle, but a sermon to the Hebrews could explain why there wasn't the familiar token signiature. However, just like God's signiatures all throughout the Bible, there are many other clever ways to see Paul's style interwoven in Hebrews.

Perhaps its left unclear at first glance so that the tribulation Jew can just read it for what it says, rather that squabble over if its Jewish enough in its authorship? After all, their time will be short!

God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Only if someone is looking to disprove canonicity, divine origin, or generate supposed contradictions by not rightly dividing, will they have a problem with the book of Hebrews.
When one elevates themselves to exact their self-serving 'scholarship', they get blinded to truth.
When one humbles themselves to accept it as perfect, things start to get clearer.

I've enjoyed this thread for all the good exchange of information.
I'm not attacking anyone undecided about Hebrews, as long as you believe it to be perfect and correct in its place, and that it was authored by God the Holy Spirit, I don't care who one thinks wrote it, but just don't doubt its perfection, or you get on a slippery slope of God giving you what your heart desires, like Tandi's friend.
I deal with folks similar to your friend, Tandi, I know its tough! But take courage in that he's actually willing to read it, that in and of itself is God at work before your very eyes!
  #35  
Old 04-27-2009, 04:32 PM
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2 Thessalonians 3:17 The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.

The KJV and all other bibles indicate in the title that the book of Hebrews is an "epistle". It looks like it's an epistle with salutations at the last chapter, with Paul's signature ("token") being absent. If Paul did not sign his name, then the salutation is not "of Paul" and the letter not his.
  #36  
Old 04-27-2009, 05:23 PM
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I believe that Paul was the author of Hebrews for a few reasons.

1. His salutation to the Churches, etc

Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty; with whom, if he come shortly, I will see you.

2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Philemon 1:1 Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer,

2. That Peter testifies that Paul had written unto the Hebrews

2 Peter 3:15
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

3. That Paul is writing it from prison, describing his bonds

Hebrews 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

4. The word "conscience" in the epistles that Brother George mentioned, similarly I noticed the phrase "I beseech you" or "beseech you" mentioned by Paul 18 times throughout his epistles, and twice in Hebrews, the only other apostle to use that Phrase was Peter, and he used it once
  #37  
Old 04-27-2009, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biblestudent View Post
2 Thessalonians 3:17 The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.

The KJV and all other bibles indicate in the title that the book of Hebrews is an "epistle". It looks like it's an epistle with salutations at the last chapter, with Paul's signature ("token") being absent. If Paul did not sign his name, then the salutation is not "of Paul" and the letter not his.

Your right about Hebrews being labeled as an epistle, I went and looked in all 8 of my KJBs, and each one labels it an epistle. However, my two Cambridge KJBs also titled it: "The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews".
Some of the other publishers are a little dubious, but Cambridge and TBS say its from Paul.
In any event, I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I think your point about the token in every epistle is a good one. I just have weighed the evidence I've read so far on both sides and found there to be far more evidence for Paul.

But MY bottom line on this topic is that I believe 100% that the book of Hebrews is perfect in the AV, it just needs to be rightly divided. Rightly dividing is a bit difficult for those of us who have just been learning about it for a couple years, but from all the study I have done about rightly dividing so far, I've seen its correct application unlock the supposed contradictions, fallacies and heresies. So I may not have all the answers, but I know that every perfect answer is in this Bible right here in my hand - Amen!


The main thing is to try to help Tandi show her friend how its actually perfect, and give him back the sure-footed confidence in the word of God.
I'm afraid I'm not skillful enough yet to help prepare her to counter the arrows of the enemy over her friend's soul, which in part depends on his acceptance of the word of God.
I'll respectfully ask the more experienced brethren on this forum to get back to giving Tandi tools and helps she can use to win her atheist friend.

Tandi, whenever I pray for my 'atheist' friend that I've been witnessing to (he's also somewhat open to listening, and accepted the Bible and tracts I gave him), I'll pray for yours too.
  #38  
Old 04-27-2009, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BornAgainBibleBeliever514 View Post
But MY bottom line on this topic is that I believe 100% that the book of Hebrews is perfect in the AV, it just needs to be rightly divided. Rightly dividing is a bit difficult for those of us who have just been learning about it for a couple years, but from all the study I have done about rightly dividing so far, I've seen its correct application unlock the supposed contradictions, fallacies and heresies. So I may not have all the answers, but I know that every perfect answer is in this Bible right here in my hand - Amen!
You're on the right track brother...
  #39  
Old 04-27-2009, 08:51 PM
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The discussion on the authorship of Hebrews may be done in another thread. So back on the topic.
  #40  
Old 04-27-2009, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BornAgainBibleBeliever514 View Post
Personally, I think that Paul was indeed the writer, God the Author.
The idea that its not an epistle, but a sermon to the Hebrews could explain why there wasn't the familiar token signiature. However, just like God's signiatures all throughout the Bible, there are many other clever ways to see Paul's style interwoven in Hebrews.

Perhaps its left unclear at first glance so that the tribulation Jew can just read it for what it says, rather that squabble over if its Jewish enough in its authorship? After all, their time will be short!

God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Only if someone is looking to disprove canonicity, divine origin, or generate supposed contradictions by not rightly dividing, will they have a problem with the book of Hebrews.
When one elevates themselves to exact their self-serving 'scholarship', they get blinded to truth.
When one humbles themselves to accept it as perfect, things start to get clearer.

I've enjoyed this thread for all the good exchange of information.
I'm not attacking anyone undecided about Hebrews, as long as you believe it to be perfect and correct in its place, and that it was authored by God the Holy Spirit, I don't care who one thinks wrote it, but just don't doubt its perfection, or you get on a slippery slope of God giving you what your heart desires, like Tandi's friend.
I deal with folks similar to your friend, Tandi, I know its tough! But take courage in that he's actually willing to read it, that in and of itself is God at work before your very eyes!
I agree with you and Brandon that Jesus Christ through the Holy Ghost wrote the Bible, but He used His prophets and apostles, and servants, His vessels of clay, and these men sometimes put the stamp of their own personalities on their writings.

It's certainly not a point for brothers and sisters to contend over, and I'm not going to hammer the point home by quoting my own references to our sister Tandi, but I teach, maintain, and believe Paul wrote Hebrews, I believe that it's important to discuss it for this reason: Studying precepts, studying salutes, studying styles of expression, studying internal evidence without havng to appeal to external sources, this is a lesson,, an exercise, in correct Bible study. Not a one of us has said, well, if this verse had been translated correctly, nor appealed to the Greek and/or Hebrew to try and read a point in that's not there. Brandon brings out the salute by Paul's own hand, a token of all his letters. That's Scriptural comparison, that's the Bereans, that's the internal evidence in the Bible, based on the English, not an unknown tongue. We agree in this forum more than we disagree, but when we do, chances are we are trying to exhibit a point and everyone has a point, and much evidence is brought out, and we can learn disagreeing with each other. We each have a shovel and turn over earth and say, but look at this I found, and the next does the same. Not as opponents, but we bring many things to light that we, and those who lurk or just read, can benefit by.

I'm not out to be a sensationalist. I'm not out to found a cult following, I already have one, lol. So as a Cult Leader, I'm going to be responsible and make my cult one based on Truth, not self interest or profit. One of you here said you liked my "style". I'm described as "radical", "unique", "off the beaten track" and "out of the box". There is a reason for that. I firmly believe my convictions, and someone will say, that's totally wrong, and then set out to prove it wrong. Whether I am right or wrong is not the end I seek: My "style" is to show onlookers, "within and without" as Paul said, how brothers and sisters can seek the truth in a given precept. How it can "inspire" people to study on their own. I want to get people talking and studying in their Bibles and from their Bibles.

I've examined Paul's death from internal evidence and find there is more evidence he died of a cardio-pulmanary disease or infection based on his advanced age and the fact he suffered from the cold, I find more evidence of this than "tradition" that he was "made a blessed martyr". I'm sure in my heart and mind as I am sitting here that's what happened. But whether I am right or wrong is not my purpose: Let's get people trained in using Isaiah 28.

The parrots over on FFF will not make a dent in my study on Triple Inspiration. They'll parrot White, Wallace, Kutilek, Hudson, some other Original Manuscript Fraud with Sophist and Gnostic Watchtower word-game arguments of men, and not give one single Scriptural reference or verse to even scratch it. If there is a problem with my study on Triple Inspiration it will be given by George or Brandon, Bible Protector, Chette, or any one of you with Scriptural objections to it. What will we have learned?

We will have learned how to learn. Scripturally.

Back to the discussion of Pauline authorship.

I believe Paul gave a salutation at the end of this letter. I believe it begins at 13:18. Paul asks for prayer then in verse 19 does his "but I prefer..." that I see in his writing. The person addressing them in verse 19 is also incarcerated and wishes to be with them. Without filling a good size book to demonstrate I believe the last 8 verse of Hebrews just drips with Paul.

Another brother brought out that people object to Paul as the author for dispensational reasons. Nothing could be farther from the truth, it fits perfectly, and here is one reason:

1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

If we let Paul be a wise masterbuilder, we see him as custodian of the transitional period from law to grace and then laying the foundation for Peter, James, John, and Jude to build upon for the "...time of Jacob's trouble." A master builder does not oversee one part of a structure, he is the master of all of it. I believe, based on right division, that Timothy made it to him before winter, that Paul then wrote the capstone of Grace Age Theology, Philemon, and that Hebrews was his last letter, and the first doctrinal letter of The Tribulation. I'm going to let him be the wise masterbuilder he claimed he was, and let his ministry span three dispensations of God's dealings with man.

If I am right it will be because of the Scripture I quote with Tandi and here, if I am wrong it will be the Scripture that proves it. In either case of discussing it, forget "tradition" and the church "fathers", get your answer from the Scriptures. That's where they all should come from.

Grace and peace to all.

Tony
 

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