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  #11  
Old 04-04-2009, 06:54 PM
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Winman,

Day might be a reference to a a descriptive stating point of his origin, not necessarily a specific day like one of the six days you are referring too. Remember in our 24/7Time Quantum or Time Measurement if you like. words like day have to be used that you and I will have a point of understanding. there is no way for us to understand Eternity until we are perfected so God chooses to use words we understand. However that doesn't mean they are all in the same reference to the same thing.

covering like that of a veil, or pan cover, valve cover? it says the cherub that covereth. but never says what he covered. If you can find a Bible verse that shows what it was he covered I would be glad to see it. if you can't find it ask why God didn't tells us what it was he covered?

God's word tells us to rightly divide. divide the scriptures if you will that are pictures of eternity form those of of the 24/7 weeks of man. you will be surprised to discover some interesting facts about those scriptures and the things they describe.

Last edited by chette777; 04-04-2009 at 07:04 PM.
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  #12  
Old 04-04-2009, 06:56 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

The definition of viols is:

1) a skin-bag, jar, pitcher

a) skin-bottle, skin

b) jar, pitcher (earthen)

2) harp, lute, guitar, musical instrument

A skin-bag, jar, or pitcher do not produce noise, so this verse must be referring to a musical instrument.
  #13  
Old 04-04-2009, 07:10 PM
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a tabret is also a drum like seat, a harp is also a seive that separates small particle from larger ones, Pipes are tubes.

While verse 12 speaks specifically of Lucifer the surround verse speak of an earthly king. the verse on Lucifer is mysteriously inserted for us to have a certain truth placed into our understanding concerning him and his power over the world and that in the end no one will fear him.

argue argue argue is it all you know how to do?
  #14  
Old 04-04-2009, 08:12 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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Chette

I like sparring with you a little, sure you noticed.

Actually, I agree with you to a point. Yes, there are no direct scriptures that say Lucifer played music. However, the original verses (Eze 28:13) questioned here point to musical instruments. Then, when you compare the verse I showed (Isa 14:11) it makes perfect sense.

This would be a case of Occam's Razor which states "the maxim that assumptions introduced to explain a thing must not be multiplied beyond necessity"

What that says is when you have a choice of assumptions, pick the assumption that fits most easily.

So, if Eze 28:11 says Lucifer was adorned with musical instruments, and Isa 14:11 says Lucifer made noise with musical instruments, you have an assumption that fits neatly and does not need any additonal assumptions.

So myself, I believe Lucifer was adorned with musical instruments and played music (or at least made noise) with them.

This idea also has support among other theologians. J. Dwight Pentecost wrote of these verses:

Quote:
"Musical instruments were originally designed to be means of praising and worshiping God. It was not necessary for Lucifer to learn to play a musical instrument to praise God. If you please, he had a built-in pipe organ, or, he was an organ . . . Lucifer didn’t have to look for someone to play the organ so that he could sing the doxology -- He was a doxology."

Last edited by Winman; 04-04-2009 at 08:21 PM.
  #15  
Old 04-04-2009, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winman View Post
This would be a case of Occam's Razor which states "the maxim that assumptions introduced to explain a thing must not be multiplied beyond necessity"

What that says is when you have a choice of assumptions, pick the assumption that fits most easily.

So, if Eze 28:11 says Lucifer was adorned with musical instruments, and Isa 14:11 says Lucifer made noise with musical instruments, you have an assumption that fits neatly and does not need any additonal assumptions.

So myself, I believe Lucifer was adorned with musical instruments and played music (or at least made noise) with them.
Winman, I find myself agreeing with you on this issue. I have been trying to envision what the Anointed Cherub must have looked like, so I can illustrate him in my movie project. The fact that the Bible verses, and cross references, seem to clearly indicate some kind of built-in musical ability in the creature is certainly something to ponder. My question, at this point, is this: Are we talking about some kind of bag-piped dragon or reptilian like creature, or what?
  #16  
Old 04-05-2009, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winman View Post
Actually, I agree with you to a point. Yes, there are no direct scriptures that say Lucifer played music. However, the original verses (Eze 28:13) questioned here point to musical instruments. Then, when you compare the verse I showed (Isa 14:11) it makes perfect sense.

This would be a case of Occam's Razor which states "the maxim that assumptions introduced to explain a thing must not be multiplied beyond necessity"

What that says is when you have a choice of assumptions, pick the assumption that fits most easily.

So, if Eze 28:11 says Lucifer was adorned with musical instruments, and Isa 14:11 says Lucifer made noise with musical instruments, you have an assumption that fits neatly and does not need any additonal assumptions.

So myself, I believe Lucifer was adorned with musical instruments and played music (or at least made noise) with them.
Good points Bro. Winman. There are some things in scripture that are not clearly defined, and a good sense assumption is what we end up with.
  #17  
Old 04-05-2009, 01:05 AM
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chette777 chette777 is offline
 
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unfortunately it says pipes and tebrets not musical instruments.

Isa 14:11 has more to do with the celebrations of victory of the king of Babylon than it does describing Lucifer's calling to be a worship leader. but where did Lucifer if he was such a beautiful creature pay his pipes and Tabrets? Where are the stones of fire (one of those non existent places)

Esekiel 28 decribe him, it does not say or describe the use of the pipes and tabrets. that is a guess at best.

Geo,

A cherub looks like a Ox and and Ox like a cherub study these verses and their surrounding verses closely.

Eze 1:10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

Eze 10:14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

these are the only two faces that don't match an Ox and a Cherub all others have their match. so a Cherub looks like an ox. large rounded eye, small horns, legs of a calf, and a tail. Hence why some would say the Bible stole its description of Satan from Roman or Greek mythological creature called Pan. but in reality the Bible has always described him as such and mythology borrowed their description of Pan from the Bible.

Once you have this upright Ox Cherub with wings cover him with These stones. they don't have to be whole pieces you can cut and paste them as needed. I am reminded of the different colors certain fish and Birds give off their scales and feathers that reflect blues, greens reds, purples, orange and reds the whole spectrum of the rainbow.

This is what the anointed cherub looked like an OX of many colors

KI,

Why doesn't the Bible go further to describe the use of these Pipes and Tabrets?

Could it be in the 24/7 he has never used them?
  #18  
Old 04-05-2009, 02:40 AM
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I can list you a very long list of things mentioned in the Bible that are not mentioned in detail mainly because such things were created in a different Time measurement or before our current 24/7 time establishment the first day of our six day creation account. they are not detailed because they are not of or for this current TQ.

Things like the wheeled chariot throne of God and full of eyes, the stones of fire, Lucifer's fall, the creation of Seraphim's, Cherub's, and angels. the New Jerusalem, God throne in the North of the North, the Altar, the heavenly tabernacle pattern shown to Moses, Horses upon which Christ and the Saints ride through heaven to earth upon, fire, water, the original earth prior to the six day events, the third heaven. which was the only one heaven of Genesis 1:1 until the firmament was created on day two (the only day not said to be good on that day though its creation is good to serve God's will). And these are only a few things.

I listed all scriptures that have an element outside the 24/7TQ we are in and many things fit in that division. because they are things that were made or existed before the 6 day creation and our current 24/7. it is a two part dispensational division eternity and the 24/7 everything falls into those two areas in Scriptures.
  #19  
Old 04-05-2009, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
Why doesn't the Bible go further to describe the use of these Pipes and Tabrets?
Are you sure it doesn't?

The scriptures posted thus far satisfy me enough to draw some conclusions.

1. When Lucifer was created by God there were tabret[s] and pipe[s] prepared inside him. Ezekiel 28:13

2. Tabrets and pipes are associated with music in scripture. Gen 31:27; 1 Samuel 10:5; 1 Samuel 18:6; Isaiah 24:8; Isaiah 30:32; Isaiah 5:12.

3. "the noise of thy viols" is a clear proof that Lucifer made music. Viols are associated with idol worship in Amos 5:23-26, and chanting in Amos 6:5.

4. Lucifer is called the "son of the morning" in Isaiah 14:12, he (Satan) was among the sons of God in Job 1, it's probable that he was with them also when the foundations of the earth were laid in Job 38:4-7 when the morning stars "sang" together (read: made musick) and the sons of God shouted for joy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
Could it be in the 24/7 he has never used them?
Do you not believe in Satanic music?

Paul said in 2 Corinthians 2:11 "Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices."

I believe Satan is very influencial in music within this 24/7TQ. He may not be the one sounding out the music from his inner organs, but certainly him and his devils play a big part inspiring or possessing the musicians of this world to make sounds that glorify the god of this world.
  #20  
Old 04-05-2009, 06:18 AM
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Lets throw a little something else into the Mix here.

Now I know that some agree that tabrets and pipes were literal musical instruments and some agree that they are sockets and settings etc, but why not take the two together, how about the tabrets, pipes, viols are not literal musical instruments embedded into his body but simply a description of his vocal chords. As we know from scripture the devil beguiled eve through his voice with enticing and seducing speech

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
We know from scripture that he will deceive many in the last days

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Now none of us can say we have ever heard the heavenly host singing, our feeble unglorified bodies and minds couldn't comprehend the beauty and majesty in the sound they would make. So those who are left under the antichrist rule are going to be so entranced and beguiled as eve was by his seducing speech (vocal Chords).




Look at this section of a vocal Chord, turn it upside down and what instrument does this look like that is used today to create seductive and devilish sounds?
 

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