[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Diligent

When our son was younger, every year I had to remind him that other children believed in this Santa Clause myth and that it wasn't our place to convince them he wasn't real. I don't think he has ever really "got" why other parents make up stories to tell their children -- and then don't tell them they are just stories!

I'm still not sure I "get" it either. We never had a hard time enjoying the season without making our boy believe in a fairy tale. I've always figured that if I expect him to believe me when I tell him about the Lord, whom he can not see, I had better not make him believe things I know aren't true!

I can see my son is a lot like me and doesn't like not telling someone the truth when he knows it. The other night we were enjoying a meal with friends who voted for Obama (yes, we have friends who voted for Obama!), and Nathan was nearly blowing his top that their boy (about his age) was glad Obama won. So it's kinda hard for him not to "spill the beans" for the other kids.

I've always figured that if I expect him to believe me when I tell him about the Lord, whom he can not see, I had better not make him believe things I know aren't true!

Good point. It always troubled me that "Santa" was made out to be like a god. "He knows if you've been good or bad," he the giver of gifts, he never dies, he's powerful--covering the entire world in one night. Yet he becomes man, who likes milk and cookies!

Originally Posted by Luke

I just want to say something about C.S. Lewis

The man was wrong on a lot of things. Yes.

But some are saying "I doubt his salvation". Why? Because you never read his conversion testimony. I haven't read yours, but I don't doubt that you are all saved. I haven't read Spurgeons, but I don't doubt that he was saved. I wonder how many great men of God in times past never had a written testimony of salvation...

Spurgeon may never have written an official testimony of salvation, but it is quite evident from his preaching that he was indeed saved. In addition there are numerous biographies that attest to the fact.
I have never written an official testimony of salvation, but I have stated it publicly many times.
Somebody who wrote so prolificly as CS Lewis should attest to their salvation somewhere, somehow.
The FACT is that we don't have ANY record of his conversion - written or verbal.
I didn't say that he WASN'T saved as a matter of fact, but rather that I doubt his salvation. This leaves the door open for the possibility that he is indeed saved. THis is all a red-herring though, because use of witchcraft as an allegory is contrary to Scripture. As such, all Christians should avoid it.

Originally Posted by Forrest

Okay, Brother Steve. As I said in my first post, we cannot be someones Holy Spirit. I sincerely appreciate your passion for the subject. I mean that. And I appreciate anyone who edifies with the word of God. But this, I think, is a case of "others may" but "I cannot." When He (the Holy Spirit) leads you to do is going to always be right. I strongly urge all of us to avoid placing one another in our "frame of reference box" regarding this particular subject.

For me, when I watched the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy, for example, I made many scriptural applications of what I know to be true. (Mainly, Good...Jesus Christ versus evil...Satan.) The Lord frequently brought various scriptures to my mind.

Here's what I do. When my inner man is troubled, or I discern or perceive in my spirit (which has been reborn and made new), that something--anything, is not right...I flee. I avoid it. I've often told my family, "I do not know why, but we do not need to read/watch that."

I know, and understand, others have a differing opinion and will judge and scrutinize the statement I just made. But I'm kind of weird guy anyway, I actually teach my family to pray for the anchors and the reporters when we watch the news on the Fox News channel! I pray for the salvation of actors and actresses, too.

We have tried to always teach our children the unfeigned word of truth. And have placed "Christ" over "character," knowing that if they love Jesus Christ first, they will have good character. They are all, by God's grace, involved in ministry. And they have no problem separating truth from reality. I think the head of a household or an individual should follow Jesus Christ and allow HIM to direct their paths. Just my take on it.

There are, no doubt, some grey areas that fall into the liberty category. I fully understand that. But these areas, in my view, are much smaller than most American Christians want them to be. We are an entertainment based society, so we have a tendency to justify our entertainment.

I don't think we can lump sorcery, witchcraft, etc. into a "liberty" category, because it is categorically condemned throughout Scripture. There are no exceptions made for it. There is no excuse given of "oh, well, it is just fiction. That makes it ok."

I am one of the easiest Pastors around. I don't have "lists" of do's and don'ts. I believe firmly that each of us needs to make up our own minds on certain issues, but where the Scriptures speak clearly on a subject, we MUST hearken, believe, and act. The Scriptures speak loud and clear on magic. Why are there so many KJV Bible Believers that refuse to hear the warnings?

Isa. 5:20 "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter."

II Corinthians 6 also seem relevant.

What we allow in our generation will be stepped up in the coming generations. I have already demonstrated this for you. Wizard of Oz - Lewis - Tolkien - D&D - Star Wars - Potter - etc. Every step gets closer and closer to the "dark side." People get sucked into the occult with these books (as one here has testified.) People get sucked into Far Eastern Mysticism with Star Wars and "The Force."

I see no Scriptural support for the opposition here. The weak argument of Romans 14 will not stand in this case because of the many clear condemnations of witchcraft throughout Scripture.

In Christ,

[Here Am I]

Well, this thread certainly has progressed.

Now it appears that we're judging whether or not someone was saved by the lack of a testimony to the effect. I can think of a number of so-called 'Christians' who didn't give a testimony.

We also seem to be getting into the business of the Holy Spirit: we are now telling people what they can and cannot do in their lives, thereby totally cutting out God's leading in our lives.

As I was reading these posts, a couple verses came to me. One is from the book of John: "Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me." (John 21:21,22)

Peter wanted to know about what John was going to do, but Jesus put things in perspective...Follow thou me.

Get your own relationship with the Lord upfront, number one, and everything else will fall into place. And stop trying to dictate to people how they should live, according to your standards.

And second verse is from 1 John: "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1 John 2:27)

When I have other people telling me what I should or should not do, I give it to the Lord, and the Holy Spirit teaches me what I should do.

I thought I'd made myself clear, that there are books that grieve me, and I have gotten rid of them. There are other books that do not grieve me, and I may continue to read them.

I'll put my trust in the Lord and how He leads me, rather than men.

[KJBPrincess]

Wow, I think that was the best post in this whole thread, Here Am I!

Originally Posted by Here Am I

Get your own relationship with the Lord upfront, number one, and everything else will fall into place. And stop trying to dictate to people how they should live, according to your standards.

And second verse is from 1 John: "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1 John 2:27)

When I have other people telling me what I should or should not do, I give it to the Lord, and the Holy Spirit teaches me what I should do.

I thought I'd made myself clear, that there are books that grieve me, and I have gotten rid of them. There are other books that do not grieve me, and I may continue to read them.

I'll put my trust in the Lord and how He leads me, rather than men.

Several problems here
The Holy Spirit will lead you - INTO ALL TRUTH.
The word of God is truth - John 17:17
We are to worship God according to Truth - John 4:24
The Holy spirit will never lead us into a position that is against the revealed truth of God in His Holy word.
Are you trying to convince me that the Holy Spirit led you to read a book about wizardry, witchcraft, etc??? Based upon what Scripture do you make this claim???
Please give a scriptural argument that shows conclusively that it is an acceptable practise to entertain thoughts on the occult, witchcraft, sorcery, wizardry, and supernatural powers when the Bible so clearly condemns them.
Your argument flies in the face of the revealed will of God on the matter.

I am not a dictator. I am a messenger. I am not judging. I am pointing out the principles of revealed Scripture. THe Scriptures are judging you. If you don't like it, take it up with the Lord - He wrote the Book, not me.
The Scriptures are NOT SILENT on this matter. If you or anyone else here wants to keep this junk in their house and life, that is your business.
I simply do not see one Scriptural reason why anyone would want to in light of these clear-cut verses.

Deut 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch (like Glenda!), 11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits (Like the JEDI), or a wizard (Like GANDOLF), or a necromancer. 12For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. 13Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God. 14For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

Exodus 22:18Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
(not even the "good" ones that only practice "white" magic - like Glenda, the "good" witch of the North!!!)

Rev. 9:21Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev. 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Oh yeah - how could I forget this one?
I Samuel 15:23For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Yep, Americans love their rights. They don't like being told what to do. In fact, most of us (myself included) don't even like the LORD telling us what to do.

For all of you witchcraft supporters out there, provide a sound SCRIPTURAL argument that supports the reading of these novels, that doesn't contradict the clear commands AGAINST witchcraft.

The idea that "since it is fiction it is ok" is foreign to Scripture (II Cor. 10:3-6)
The idea that "since it doesn't have any [visible or tangible] affects, it is ok" won't wash either. The very fact that some here are tolerant of it only reveals that they DO have an affect on the way you think - you have accepted that which God calls an abomination.
The idea that "the Holy Spirit will lead me" is a good idea, until we find out that the Holy spirit ONLY leads us to the truth, and it will never violate Scripture.

Are we Bible believers here in theory only???

In Christ

This has been an interesting thread. Just a few reactions:

1. One's choice of literature (in the context of this thread) is a matter of Christian liberty. If I want to read Harry Potter books all night long, I'm free in Christ to do so - - - if my conscience doesn't condemn me (1 John 3:21). That's the flip-side of "liberty:" it only works if we're truly seeking God's will. Therefore, I can't read Harry Potter (not that I'd want to); but neither can I say that a brother who reads it is sinning against God. I will say that he's asking for trouble, corrupting his mind, and providing ground for possession by unclean spirits. But I'm not going to say that any Christian who reads such tripe is out of fellowship with God: he or she might simply be stupid. It grieves me, truly grieves me, that my eldest son is raising his kids on Harry Potter; but his mother (to whom I am no longer married, Diligent, so I'm not airing my dirty laundry) raised him on the Narnia books. I do not view this as coincidence. If I knew then what I know now ..... well, that way lies madness!

2. I have seen a number of people, including at least one person in this forum (not myself), influenced toward Christ by C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity." His "Screwtape Letters" is well-done and inoffensive, and provides some good insights. However, I have (recently) studied the symbolism and mythical elements of the Narnia books, and I'm convinced that they are straight out of Hell, and entirely based on pagan myths, some of which are utterly filthy. His inclusion of Bacchus (the god of wine) and the maenids (promiscuous female spirits, the female equivalents of satyrs) should be reason enough to make the books off-limits for children (even though they won't know what they're reading, the subconscious references will stick). And I have read every autobiographical book Lewis ever wrote, and many biographies written by others, and even the books of his letters; and I see absolutely no reason to think that he was a saved man. In his theological works, he expressed belief in purgatory, prayers to the dead (not necromancy, but Catholic-type stuff), and likened the Lord Jesus Christ to the heathen god Apollo. And he very explicitly rejected the divine inspiration of Scripture. Remember, Lewis' literary specialty was myth: this stuff didn't get into his head, or his children's books, by accident. When he had adorable little Lucy frolicking with the drunken satyrs and maenids in the Narnia books, he knew exactly what he was doing.

3. If you're going to really look for necromancy in popular culture, it doesn't stop with Tolkien; in all of the modern (post-1960s) Superman movies and TV shows, Superman regularly communes with his dead father. But I wouldn't say that watching a Superman movie is quite on the same level as consulting a medium. We've got to use common sense in this thing.

4. I read a lot of fiction, and some of you might not approve of some of it. (None of it is occult stuff.) But I'm a grown man, and I know what I'm doing. The Narnia and Potter books are terrible stuff, because they're aimed at kids. If I were a pastor, I'd preach against them; but I wouldn't discipline a church member who read them, or gave them to his/her children.

We've gotta give the Holy Spirit some room to work. And we really should, as much as possible, try to overlook our brethren's shortcomings, as Christ overlooks so many of ours.

[Forrest]

Brother Steve, or anyone else, if those books or movies cause you to reject the word of the LORD, cause your children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom, if they cause you to observe times, and use enchantments, and use witchcraft, and deal with a familiar spirit, and with wizards, if they cause you to bring forth much evil in the sight of the LORD, if you are, as a result, involved in witchcraft, if they cause you to make your son or daughter to pass through the fire, or use divination, or observe times, or become an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer, if they cause you to use sorcery, and bewitch people and it causes you to be possessed with a spirit of divination, which will bring your employer much gain by soothsaying, if those materials cause you to use curious arts, if you are persuaded to call evil good, and good evil; and to put darkness for light, and light for darkness; and to put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter—BY ALL MEANS AVOID THEM. Everything I just said is the BIBLE.

1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

2 Chronicles 33:6 And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Deuteronomy 18:10-12 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Acts 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

Acts 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

Acts 19:19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

I agree with 2 Corinthians 6:3, which says, “Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed.” That is why if you if you came by for some fellowship, I would not say, “Hey Brother Steve, would you like to watch “Lord of the Rings”?

1 Corinthians 8:7-13 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Steve Schwenke

Several problems here
The Holy Spirit will lead you - INTO ALL TRUTH.
The word of God is truth - John 17:17
We are to worship God according to Truth - John 4:24
The Holy spirit will never lead us into a position that is against the revealed truth of God in His Holy word.
Are you trying to convince me that the Holy Spirit led you to read a book about wizardry, witchcraft, etc??? Based upon what Scripture do you make this claim???
Please give a scriptural argument that shows conclusively that it is an acceptable practise to entertain thoughts on the occult, witchcraft, sorcery, wizardry, and supernatural powers when the Bible so clearly condemns them.
Your argument flies in the face of the revealed will of God on the matter.

I am not a dictator. I am a messenger. I am not judging. I am pointing out the principles of revealed Scripture. THe Scriptures are judging you. If you don't like it, take it up with the Lord - He wrote the Book, not me.
The Scriptures are NOT SILENT on this matter. If you or anyone else here wants to keep this junk in their house and life, that is your business.
I simply do not see one Scriptural reason why anyone would want to in light of these clear-cut verses.

Deut 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch (like Glenda!), 11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits (Like the JEDI), or a wizard (Like GANDOLF), or a necromancer. 12For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. 13Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God. 14For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

Exodus 22:18Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
(not even the "good" ones that only practice "white" magic - like Glenda, the "good" witch of the North!!!)

Rev. 9:21Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev. 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Oh yeah - how could I forget this one?
I Samuel 15:23For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Yep, Americans love their rights. They don't like being told what to do. In fact, most of us (myself included) don't even like the LORD telling us what to do.

For all of you witchcraft supporters out there, provide a sound SCRIPTURAL argument that supports the reading of these novels, that doesn't contradict the clear commands AGAINST witchcraft.

The idea that "since it is fiction it is ok" is foreign to Scripture (II Cor. 10:3-6)
The idea that "since it doesn't have any [visible or tangible] affects, it is ok" won't wash either. The very fact that some here are tolerant of it only reveals that they DO have an affect on the way you think - you have accepted that which God calls an abomination.
The idea that "the Holy Spirit will lead me" is a good idea, until we find out that the Holy spirit ONLY leads us to the truth, and it will never violate Scripture.

Are we Bible believers here in theory only???

In Christ

Right, I don't think this really is a debatable issue. I don't know why some folks are so wishy washy about it (and honestly, I am a bit so at times.). I used to love fantasy books, and truth be told, I wish I could read them again. But I'd be betraying everything I stand for if I did. My Lord wrote His Words down in a Book, and He is CLEAR on this subject. There is zero ambiguity about His views on practicing this abomination, and I don't think it's a stretch to say that it is also an abomination in His eyes to take pleasure reading about fictional characters practicing these activities in a positive or negative light. I call this passive acceptance. I mean seriously. If Jesus were to walk into the room while you were reading a book that endorses these things (even if in a fictional way) would you be like "hey Jesus, this book is great, the great wizard of the great empire just cast a way cool 10th level enchantment! So exciting!" Seriously. Do we really think God looks favourably on this stuff? I doubt it.

I hate to be so "legalistic", as some might call it, on this. If this was a meats and drink issue I think it would be different, but this is clearly an abomination in God's eyes. So let's not take this to lightly as we proceed to discuss this issue.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

[Forrest]

He is CLEAR on this subject.

Read my post #38, opening paragraph and get clear, Biblical support.

There is zero ambiguity about His views on practicing this abomination...

Practicing? I agree.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that it is also an abomination in His eyes to take pleasure reading about fictional characters practicing these activities in a positive or negative light.

I do not take pleasure in the wrong. I get pumped about the right!

If Jesus were to walk into the room while you were reading a book that endorses these things...

ANY BOOK.

If this was a meats and drink issue I think it would be different...

It's an application, Brother Stephen. If anything I do causes a weaker brother to stumble, I will not knowingly do it.

You are never wrong by doing whatever the LORD JESUS tells you in HIS WORD. No arguing here, just a different opinion. But as I said in my first post, "I'm marked" now.