[stephanos]

Thank you brother Matthew. I like PB1789 have a difficult time with White. I've always said that if I never hear his name again, it will be too soon. Nevertheless, I wasn't aware that he was publishing another edition of this book. Did he send you a copy to review?

Now I want to comment on inspiration. I don't think the translators of the KJB were inspired in the way that, say, Paul was. But I don't see how they could have produced a flawless rendition of God's Word without the Spirit guiding their hearts and minds. So, if God was guiding the hearts and minds of these fallible men to produce an infallible Book, what does it say about the process? I know that many moderate KJBO folks want to stay clear of those that believe the KJB translators were inspired, but what I keep being lead to think upon is that I don't see how uninspired men could have produced an inerrant and infallible Book without some mode of inspiration. What say ye?


Peace and Love,
Stephen

[MC1171611]

Originally Posted by stephanos

Thank you brother Matthew. I like PB1789 have a difficult time with White. I've always said that if I never hear his name again, it will be too soon. Nevertheless, I wasn't aware that he was publishing another edition of this book. Did he send you a copy to review?

Now I want to comment on inspiration. I don't think the translators of the KJB were inspired in the way that, say, Paul was. But I don't see how they could have produced a flawless rendition of God's Word without the Spirit guiding their hearts and minds. So, if God was guiding the hearts and minds of these fallible men to produce an infallible Book, what does it say about the process? I know that many moderate KJBO folks want to stay clear of those that believe the KJB translators were inspired, but what I keep being lead to think upon is that I don't see how uninspired men could have produced an inerrant and infallible Book without some mode of inspiration. What say ye?


Peace and Love,
Stephen

Amen, brother. I've hit that before (though most disagree with me...that's ok ) and I've come to realize that inspiration is simply the Holy Spirit moving or directing a person to do something. If He could have given Paul the exact words to write down in Greek, what's to say that He didn't give the translators the exact words to write down in English?

[Winman]

Thanks for the post. I have to admit, I am not a scholar at all, a lot of this kind of information is very new to me, I have been spending time reading some of these studies here.

I personally think that God himself moved imperfect men to come up with the infallible KJB. It was God himself who promised to preserve His words, not man.

And even the prophets were normal men.

James 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

One of the things I love about the Bible, and why I knew it was true when I read it as a boy, is because it tells the truth about man, and how we really are. We know that Noah got drunk, we know David commited adultery with Bathsheba, we know of Samson and Delilah, how Peter denied the Lord three times...

This gave me hope, because I knew I was a terrible sinner with many faults. But God used these men, and he can use someone like me too.

So, I think God could easily have moved the translators to compile the KJB. And this is just my personal opinion, but I think God chose England to spread the Word of God throughout the world. This was when England became a real superpower with colonies throughout the world. They used to say, "the sun never sets on the English empire". And it was so, England was everywhere, in America, in Asia, Africa, all across the globe. So I think God used the KJB to spread the gospel to the entire world.

[JOHN G]

Those that ascribe to TULIP theology claim a high view of God's sovereignty (though evidently not sovereign enough to preserve His Word). My God is SO soveriegn He can preserve His Word through falliable men!

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.


P.S. I have never met a Calvinist who wasn't in the elect!

[bibleprotector]

The central issue at hand is either:

1. God is not able to get His Word 100% into one book; that man is imperfect, and can never be used of God to the extent to bring forth perfection in regards to particular works or areas of knowledge.

Or,

2. God is able to get His Word 100% into one book; and despite the imperfections of the world, men are able to be used of God to the extent that perfection may be exhibited in particular works or areas of knowledge.

Consider that a person is to be living right and grown up before God, as the Scripture says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48). Since this is a commandment, it is attainable (obviously by faith in God’s grace).

Should we call a Christian living righteously and godly “inspired”? No.

Moreover, Aquila and Priscilla were used to teach Apollos the way of Christ, “And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.” (Acts 18:26).

Should we call those who understand right doctrines, and teachers of them “inspired”? No.

When we look at the making of the King James Bible, if we see it as merely a natural event, and that God’s hand in history is not “absolute”, or that God’s use of men is so limited, then of course we will not be accepting that perfection in the making of the King James Bible. Remember, infallibility is an attribute of God, and if His Spirit is at work, it is Him and not the men used who are infallible. God’s use of men can be in all kinds of ways, and has at many times not been by “inspiration” (i.e. a process of newly giving the Scripture). Nevertheless, God’s use will be by the spirit.

Examples include:

“And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship” (Exodus 31:3).

A person was able to excel in his work and the arts.

“And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the LORD, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things” (1 Chron. 28:12).

A person was able to know, plan, layout and processes of the temple.

“Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.” (Isaiah 32:15).

People are able to function the right way at the right time and prosper.

“And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.” (Joel 2:29).

People are able to respond properly, and operate together at the right time.

These historical and prophesied examples go far beyond the initial giving of Scripture, but relate to works, events, movements, etc. It should be evident to see how God worked out the King James Bible in this manner. It is not inspiration, it is providential. The Spirit of God is able to communicate, just as Jesus said He would in the Gospel of John.

[bibleprotector]

James White's book, "The King James Only Controversy" will be a revised edition according to the publisher's website:

"Why a second edition? Fourteen years since the writing of the original has seen not only developments in the textual critical field, but the King James Only advocates have been writing books in that time as well, most of which seek to respond to my work. Some key examples, plus an expanded bibliography, bring the work up to date on that level. Further, those advocates have attempted to raise counter examples, and so the number of passages addressed in the work is expanded. During that time I have addressed this topic so many times that I have developed a number of useful illustrations to help the layperson understand the key issues, and these are included in the work as well. Finally, the explosion onto the scene of Bart Ehrman and his works on the New Testament are noted as well. As a result, the next edition of The King James Only Controversy will provide a valuable addition to the library of anyone seeking to understand the trustworthiness of the New Testament today."
—James R. White, explaining his reasoning for a revision of this book

I have not seen the new edition. All my reviewing to this date is based on the original edition.

[bibleprotector]

Listening to James White refute a TR onlyist on his internet broadcast today, I heard this remarkable statement:

James White: “Now, of course, everybody recognises a lie when you see it, and unfortunately King James Only folks are willing to lie. That’s just a fact, we’ve documented it many times, and of course, since I’ve written a book on this subject ...”

[kittn1]

Originally Posted by stephanos

Now I want to comment on inspiration. I don't think the translators of the KJB were inspired in the way that, say, Paul was. But I don't see how they could have produced a flawless rendition of God's Word without the Spirit guiding their hearts and minds. So, if God was guiding the hearts and minds of these fallible men to produce an infallible Book, what does it say about the process? I know that many moderate KJBO folks want to stay clear of those that believe the KJB translators were inspired, but what I keep being lead to think upon is that I don't see how uninspired men could have produced an inerrant and infallible Book without some mode of inspiration. What say ye?


Peace and Love,
Stephen

I say , brother Stephen; in the same way I believe the Spirit guided the placement of chapter and verse divisions.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by stephanos View Post
Now I want to comment on inspiration. I don't think the translators of the KJB were inspired in the way that, say, Paul was. But I don't see how they could have produced a flawless rendition of God's Word without the Spirit guiding their hearts and minds. So, if God was guiding the hearts and minds of these fallible men to produce an infallible Book, what does it say about the process? I know that many moderate KJBO folks want to stay clear of those that believe the KJB translators were inspired, but what I keep being lead to think upon is that I don't see how uninspired men could have produced an inerrant and infallible Book without some mode of inspiration. What say ye?


Peace and Love,
Stephen
I say , brother Stephen; in the same way I believe the Spirit guided the placement of chapter and verse divisions.
__________________
The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple. Psalm 119:130

In Him, Laura
================================================== =======

Although many Charismatics follow the original manuscript fraud, many fundamentalist Christians try and define "inspiration" as a Pentecostal-like Magic Trance you go into and write or speak via automatic writing, which is occultic and the belief of the Greeks, their "Muse" or "daemons" speaking to and through them. We need to abandon this pagan magic trance view of inspiration and define the word Biblically.

Square one is the oracles of God are given unto the Jews. God will speak through no one but of His chosen people for initial revelation. Now, what about the king's decree in Daniel? Well, the Gentile king wrote it but God works effectually in those who read the decree and believe God, so Daniel(a Jew)recorded it in his book.

Square two is words are inspired, men are not. Nowhere did Peter claim to be inspired. The OT prophets all exclaimed, thus saith the Lord, but not my words, not my opinions, but HIS words. God's words are ALIVE, as uranium is radioactive, sodium is not. When Jesus raised Lazarus, He did not snap His fingers, he SAID, Lazarus, come forth. No electrodes plugged into his neck like Frankenstein, God SPOKE him to life. Peter said, I am not in a trance, I am a holy man of God speaking God's words as moved by the Holy Ghost for this scribe to record. Paul can be said to be the closest to declaring he was "inspired", yet he said the THINGS I WRITE UNTO YOU, are THE commandments of THE LORD, NOT ME.

Let me give an example of inspiration:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I just wrote those words. I am not in a trance. The Holy Ghost moved me to check the copy I read them from as Job 32:8 and II Timothy 3:16 commands to write them accurately with nothing added or left out. This passage in John is ALL Scripture, it is INSPIRED Scripture, it is God's living words that give life to a lost soul, that works effectually in those who believe it after reading it. It is GOD who does all that, not ME. I was MOVED of the Holy Ghost to give whoever is reading this a living copy of His living word. It's not ME who is inspired, it is the WORDS I WROTE that are inspired.

Now the question is asked, who decided the canon? The oracles of God, Jews. Deut.17 says the Levites were given custody of the OT writings. The Apostles were given custody of the NT. I believe John decided the canon of the NT, that may be conjecture but he was the apostle "who Jesus loved" and who He gave the Revelation through. Whoever decided the canon did it under God's inspiration and was a Jew, not a Gentile.

Is it outrageous to say that God collected an inspired copy of ALL the original manuscripts together in one volume for the first time in history in a common language worldwide(KJV)?
Is it outrageous that there is a resurrection of the dead, a flood of water covered the earth, a sea parted to the dry bottom for a nation to walk through, ot that a God would take the form of His creatures and die for them becasue they could not satisfy His Justice?

I'm still the new guy, one of them "dry cleaners" and I hope you all pardon me being so dogmatic. I believe we need to be dogmatic about the truth. This is my best description of inspiration. God is inspiration(noun), men are not inspired(verb), Gods words ARE.

Grace and peace to all

Tony

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Originally Posted by stephanos View Post
Now I want to comment on inspiration. I don't think the translators of the KJB were inspired in the way that, say, Paul was. But I don't see how they could have produced a flawless rendition of God's Word without the Spirit guiding their hearts and minds. So, if God was guiding the hearts and minds of these fallible men to produce an infallible Book, what does it say about the process? I know that many moderate KJBO folks want to stay clear of those that believe the KJB translators were inspired, but what I keep being lead to think upon is that I don't see how uninspired men could have produced an inerrant and infallible Book without some mode of inspiration. What say ye?


Peace and Love,
Stephen
I say , brother Stephen; in the same way I believe the Spirit guided the placement of chapter and verse divisions.
__________________
The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple. Psalm 119:130

In Him, Laura
================================================== =======

Although many Charismatics follow the original manuscript fraud, many fundamentalist Christians try and define "inspiration" as a Pentecostal-like Magic Trance you go into and write or speak via automatic writing, which is occultic and the belief of the Greeks, their "Muse" or "daemons" speaking to and through them. We need to abandon this pagan magic trance view of inspiration and define the word Biblically.

Square one is the oracles of God are given unto the Jews. God will speak through no one but of His chosen people for initial revelation. Now, what about the king's decree in Daniel? Well, the Gentile king wrote it but God works effectually in those who read the decree and believe God, so Daniel(a Jew)recorded it in his book.

Square two is words are inspired, men are not. Nowhere did Peter claim to be inspired. The OT prophets all exclaimed, thus saith the Lord, but not my words, not my opinions, but HIS words. God's words are ALIVE, as uranium is radioactive, sodium is not. When Jesus raised Lazarus, He did not snap His fingers, he SAID, Lazarus, come forth. No electrodes plugged into his neck like Frankenstein, God SPOKE him to life. Peter said, I am not in a trance, I am a holy man of God speaking God's words as moved by the Holy Ghost for this scribe to record. Paul can be said to be the closest to declaring he was "inspired", yet he said the THINGS I WRITE UNTO YOU, are THE commandments of THE LORD, NOT ME.

Let me give an example of inspiration:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I just wrote those words. I am not in a trance. The Holy Ghost moved me to check the copy I read them from as Job 32:8 and II Timothy 3:16 commands to write them accurately with nothing added or left out. This passage in John is ALL Scripture, it is INSPIRED Scripture, it is God's living words that give life to a lost soul, that works effectually in those who believe it after reading it. It is GOD who does all that, not ME. I was MOVED of the Holy Ghost to give whoever is reading this a living copy of His living word. It's not ME who is inspired, it is the WORDS I WROTE that are inspired.

Now the question is asked, who decided the canon? The oracles of God, Jews. Deut.17 says the Levites were given custody of the OT writings. The Apostles were given custody of the NT. I believe John decided the canon of the NT, that may be conjecture but he was the apostle "who Jesus loved" and who He gave the Revelation through. Whoever decided the canon did it under God's inspiration and was a Jew, not a Gentile.

Is it outrageous to say that God collected an inspired copy of ALL the original manuscripts together in one volume for the first time in history in a common language worldwide(KJV)?
Is it outrageous that there is a resurrection of the dead, a flood of water covered the earth, a sea parted to the dry bottom for a nation to walk through, ot that a God would take the form of His creatures and die for them becasue they could not satisfy His Justice?

I'm still the new guy, one of them "dry cleaners" and I hope you all pardon me being so dogmatic. I believe we need to be dogmatic about the truth. This is my best description of inspiration. God is inspiration(noun), men are not inspired(verb), Gods words ARE.

Grace and peace to all

Tony

Why is it that you keep trying to remind us that you're a hyper-dispensationalist? Is this a fact, or is this what some call you?

Concerning inspiration, the Scriptures tell us that:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (2 Timothy 3:16 KJV)

If what you're saying is the case (and I think of a truth it is) then that would say that "all Scripture is inspired of God" but it doesn't. It says that it is "given" by inspiration. Here is the mode:

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:21 KJV)

So you're going to have to shew that these words are alive as you described them to be. I agree that they are, but when dealing with the doctrine of inspiration you need to get your mode right.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen