[stephanos]

Originally Posted by chette777

I have heard that speach at a Ecumenical speech to unite all religions

Gophgetter has to heard that salvation is by grace alone. and in order for he and you to get on track with correct interpretaion for the correct application (i.e.Historical, Spritual and Doctrinal) TODAY, you need to rightly divide.

no one has been pretentious in their own understanding. we learn form better men and is so doing we grow. And all our this included all helps to you and gophgetter were done in love for you, the other veiwers and posters, and for the love of the word of God.

again you better reflect on your own heart Proverbs 17:20 He that hath a froward heart findeth no good: you never find any good only hatred, stone throwing, pretentious understandings, arrogance, pride, boastfulness etc...

We can safely say your heart is not right in more than one way Stephanos.

and further more Renee is very Strong in the scriptures and more able to teach sound doctrine than you are. so pay her some respect and stop talking down to her and stop slamming the rest of us.

I saw a lot of good all over these forums when I first got here. That is before you made it your agenda to attack my every post. I've tried MY BEST to calm things as they have progressed lately. I've tried to tell YOU to back off and to respect that I don't agree with you. Have you ever noticed that I don't try to convert you away from what I believe is your wrong divisions? Please leave me alone Chette. Is that plain enough for you? I will listen to the dispensational rhetoric from everyone else, just not you anymore. Are we clear? I won't attack you and your view of Scripture, if you could be so kind to do the same. Is that fair enough?

I think I should share something else. Today I decided to check out your website. I really was amazed to read your story, and to see the picture of you and your family. It truly helped me to have a face to go along with the name. You look like a reasonable man that I could sit and have a discussion with face to face. Yet, my brother, we cannot do so here. Why is that Chette? Is it the distance between us that creates this conflict? How can we resolve this? I can't continue to have to explain myself over and over again like I'm having to do lately. I work full time brother, and have few moments in the evening to do my prayer and bible studies, and even those have been affected by these discussions. Sometimes I wish I could introduce you to my dear friend and mentor, brother David Burkholder, the bishop of the Eastern Pennsylvannia Mennonite congregation I fellowship with. I think you would be in for a rude awakening to find out what we Conservative Mennonite are really about. Granted you are a knowledgable guy and we certainly could learn from you. But unfortunately this would have to be a two way street. Relationships don't work when one person is always the authority on something and the others have to listen or face threats and rebukes for every other thing they say.
Man I wish you realized how often I've read something I didn't see as fitting the teachings of the Holy Bible, and let go simply because it doesn't help anyone to nit pick on every little issue I find fault with.
You, in essence, called me ecumenical in this post. Brother, you couldn't be farther from the truth. What you fail to realize is that I want to see those I believe have faith in Christ Jesus, the Son of God, united behind the KJB, not divided on little things. That has always been my agenda. My whole goal in life is to inspire Christians to return to an unfailing love of the Word of God, the King James Bible. That's why I originally came to these forums. I'd spent time on a other forums and had been beaten down time and time again for my unfailing stance for the KJB. I had hoped to find as Paul puts a refreshing in my bowels in the Lord (Philemon 1:20) among others whose sole authority is the KJB. But this has not been the case lately, although it was in the beginning. Reading posts by Steven Avery and Bibleprotector really inspired me and created an even greater desire to be a light for the KJB on these dark internets.
I don't know where to go from here in all honesty. Chette, you've worn me out. I don't want to argue with you anymore, and really I don't want to ignore you either. I guess some would take that course of action, but that's just not my style, especially with a man of God such as yourself. Help me out here bro. I've made it clear that I don't agree with you, and that I don't want to argue with you. Are we going to let this issue be a division between us? This is not my desire...

for Jesus' sake,
Stephen

[chette777]

See there you go again you keep calling it an attack. I never attacked you I corrected and reproved you. but you constantly think you were attacked. your were corrected becuse you are in error. You were instructed on how to see the truth clearly from the error. You help Gophgeter spread a doctrine of Progressive Salvation and Loss of Salvation and at the same time were encouraging others against rightly dividing.

Telling you to lay off Renee now that was an attack. because you were wrong in what you said to her.

If you continue to spread seeds of discord and false teaching via posts. someone will always be on your tail if not I. No one else wanted to deal with you. I took you on as a special interest to help you grow. but every time I made a remark you attacked me saying I was prideful and arrogant and presumptuious

as You wish, I shake the dust of my feet off with you then.

But before I do let me clarify. I said I heard those words echoed in Ecumenical statements not you were ecumenical.

You are correct Iron on iron will either sharpen or wear down.

You have never been open to my instruction, admonishement or reproof every time I made a remark you attacked me saying I was attacking you. your bitterness and ego were very obvious throughout many of your posts agaist anything I tried to share. and you errected a division the first day I mentioned rightly dividing. Becuse you don't beleive in it.

Please forgive the hurt I caused you. There never was any intention in my heart to cause you harn only hopeful prayer you would learn.

Well then God bless Your life abundantly.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by stephanos

Please leave me alone Chette. Is that plain enough for you?

This is absurd. Chette's concern has been to correct what he sees as your incorrect handling of Scripture, certainly in part for the benefit of other people who are reading. Why would you expect your posts to be off limits to him for reply? If he sees you telling someone else something that he regards incorrect, he has every reason to reply if he chooses. You are cerainly free to ignore his posts, just as you are telling him to ignore yours.

As for Gophgetter: he was not banned just because he shares your "you can lose it" view of salvation. How would you explain your own continued presence here if that were the only criteria?

My original "charter" for the forum was modified a long time ago (see http://av1611.com/forums/faq.php), and one thing I am not tolerating is people who sign up only so they can promote a false heresy. Nobody can obligate me to spend my money and time maintaining a forum for such things.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Diligent

This is absurd. Chette's concern has been to correct what he sees as your incorrect handling of Scripture, certainly in part for the benefit of other people who are reading. Why would you expect your posts to be off limits to him for reply? If he sees you telling someone else something that he regards incorrect, he has every reason to reply if he chooses. You are cerainly free to ignore his posts, just as you are telling him to ignore yours.

As for Gophgetter: he was not banned just because he shares your "you can lose it" view of salvation. How would you explain your own continued presence here if that were the only criteria?

My original "charter" for the forum was modified a long time ago (see http://av1611.com/forums/faq.php), and one thing I am not tolerating is people who sign up only so they can promote a false heresy. Nobody can obligate me to spend my money and time maintaining a forum for such things.

Fair enough. But what you must realize about me, and this is just to clarify, is that I don't believe that born again Christians can loose their salvation. I do believe there are those who we before of old ordained to a certain condemnation (Jude 1:4), but a person who lives their life in any degree of faith in the risen Son of God, Jesus Christ, is in Christ, and cannot loose their salvation. I hope that is clear now.

To Chette: I had some time last night to think upon a comment I made towards Renee.

To Renee: please forgive my unfair and unkind words I spoke in frustration to you. My last intention was to insult you, or hurt you in any way.

Now concerning this supposed error. I don't agree that dispensationalism is 100% sound biblical doctrine. I DID NOT arbitrarily come to this conclusion. I have heard what you all have had to say to me in regards to my view on things. I appreciate that you are concerned about what you guys see as my being in error. However, you all fail to realize that Christians have a long history of not seeing eye to eye on things found in the Scriptures. Yet, for the most part, we Christians have been able to work together for the common good in Christ Jesus, despite these differences. This is what I would like to see here. I don't want Chette to just stop believing what he does, but rather, to stop hitting me upside the head with it every time I share my thoughts on something. I think this is fair, but then again, I've been wrong before. Chette, you said "every time I made a remark you attacked me saying I was prideful and arrogant and presumptuious". The only reason I ever responded to you the way I did is because your posts have always had a spirit of "I'm right, this young guy is wrong, let me show him how it is..." and I, and many people, don't respond well to that. I may have used words that were unfair in some of my responses, if that is the case, I do apologize. But please understand things from my vantage point. I see someone that has always had an agenda with me, and since my convictions are just as strong as yours, I've had to mount rather strong defenses to ensure that people understand that I mean business when it comes to those that want to convert me away from what I believe IS sound biblical doctrine. You said that iron sharpens iron, and to this I agree. I have no qualms with two individuals growing together in the knowledge and wisdom found in Christ Jesus. But I have never percieved that with yourself. It has always appeared to me that you viewed our conversations as a one way streat, and were never open to what I felt to be true. If this can change, then I will be more open to what you have to say. If not, then I will have to hear things from someone different in their presentation.

for Jesus' sake,
Stephen

[George]

First of all Renee, you need to relax. Your responses to gophgetter concern me, and it is clear you would like to now shift the attention to myself now that you all have effectively rid yourselves of gophgetter. Throwing stones at everyone you think is wrong, and ostracizing them as heretics is NOT the way. Perhaps you should have let those who are stronger in the Scriptures help gophgetter understand the dispensational viewpoint (since I now see that this is the only acceptable viewpoint on these forums, despite diligents original intent which he expressed on http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2). Secondly, could you not single me out like this anymore. I have always stated that salvation is by grace through faith. I do add that salvation is conditional upon "faith" but I don't see anywhere in the entire Holy Bible where this belief is contradictory to what is taught therein.

I want you to know that I nearly cried when you told him that he isn't a part of the family. I assure you Renee, Christ Jesus sees things differently. You should not be so hasty to judge a brother in Christ, even one who differs greatly in his take on core doctrine. Perhaps gophgetter never heard things preached the way you and I have? Perhaps he simply needed someone to show him that salvation is indeed by grace through faith, someone besides those that write "you gotta rightly divide" on every other post. I'm not saying here I disagree with right division of Scripture, I'm saying that some people, myself included, need to hear things from those that aren't so pretentious in their own understanding, someone whose message is salted a little more with the love of the brethren.

for Jesus' sake,
Stephen

Stephen,

Now you've "got my goat"! (Euphemistically speaking of course!) Ever since you have come to this Forum you have been fairly careful to "straddle the fence" (like all good Sophists) and not declare yourself (at least not in language that is clearly understood) as to where you really stand on several issues.

Your "reluctance" (in your "biography" on this Forum) to not reveal any details about yourself personally (not your age nor "background") is instructive though, because it demonstrates someone who is "careful" not to reveal too much about himself.

But your remarks about my wife "Renee" are "over-the-top" and deserve to be dealt with - along with your Humanistic approach to the issues of life!

First of all your Smart-Alec statement: "First of all Renee, you need to relax." - Is the way that all Humanists (and Sophists) deal with people and statements that they disagree with. Did it ever occur to you that gophgetter affected my wife the same way you "claim" her statements affected you? Are you the only one with feelings on this Forum? I trow not!

I have avoided "dealing" with you since you first came on this Forum, because, after dealing with "Christians" for 50 years I can spot a Sophist fairly soon, and I refuse to engage people like you in conversation or debate because it is "an exercise in futility".

But when you come out and insult my wife, that is another matter!

Your supposed "concern" for gophgetter "concerns" me, because the man clearly is a heretic. Are you in the habit of defending heretics? Why all this "concern" for someone who is perverting the words of God? Hmmm? Your "concern" is misplaced - you should be more concerned about sound doctrine that is "pure" (without error) than someone who is clearly trying to lead God's people astray!

I have pointed out in a recent post that your "metaphor" of "throwing stones" is wrong and totally in error. Your thinking is so shot-through with Humanistic values that you cannot discern the simplest of Scriptural principles and precepts! You cannot paint gophgetters banning with a broad Humanistic brush such as: "you all have effectively rid yourselves of gophgetter. Throwing stones at everyone you think is wrong,".

Gophgetter is a heretic - we dealt with him according to the Scriptures, which you obviously disagree with. The fault was his - NOT ours! The error that you now embrace is yours - NOT ours! We have acted according to the Scriptures - you don't "like" the way we have conducted ourselves, even though the Bible is crystal clear that: "A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;" Titus 3:10. Your "problem" (and it is a serious "problem") is with the Scriptures, and ultimately with the God of the Bible. You REFUSE to believe what God has said about about heretics - or else IF you are in agreement with gophgetter you may be a heretic yourself (Please NOTICE the word IF!)

Are you saying that you are "stronger in the Scriptures" than my wife - because you may have mastered the Sophistical way of twisting and wresting Scripture out of context to make it say or "mean" something other than what God said?

Your sweeping condemnation of most of us on this Forum: "since I now see that this is the only acceptable viewpoint on these forums, despite diligents original intent which he expressed on http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2." is indicative of someone who is unwilling (or unable) to discern between a personal "viewpoint" and false doctrine or heresy.

Can't you see or discern that the doctrine that gophgetter was promoting was clearly heresy and NOT just a Humanistic "viewpoint"?

My wife singled you out, because, from the minute gophgetter joined the Forum, it was obvious to her (and to me - and I'm sure to others on this Forum) that you were "emboldened" to support him and his heresy (kind of like "coming out of the closet" - if you know what I mean!)

If you knew my wife, like I have for the past 47 years you wouldn't have dared insult her the way you have done. I truly doubt if there are 100 Christian women in the whole of the United States that could "measure up" to her when it comes to being a faithful wife, helpmate, and mother. For the 50 years I have been saved I have NEVER MET a single woman ("Christian" or otherwise) that has measured up to her selflessness and charity. If you don't believe me - look at her life verse under her name!)

You have stated: "I have always stated that salvation is by grace through faith. I do add that salvation is conditional upon "faith" . . ." Our salvation is conditioned on our BELIEF in the Lord Jesus Christ (according the Bible record) and HIS FAITH - that He gave us. You are free to believe anything that you want to, but I would caution you that you are ADDING to the word of God IF you "think" that there is something you can "DO" to KEEP IT! The fact that you "can't see" something in the Bible doesn't make it untrue - it may be that God isn't showing you something because of your UNBELIEF!

The rest of your "post" is so full of "Humanistic drivel" that I refuse to deal with it, except to say that for someone who professes to believe the Bible - you show a remarkable inability to discern even the simplest Scriptural principles and precepts! You can obtain "knowledge" of the Bible from study and other people; you can even obtain rudimentary discernment from a study of the Bible and other people; but true Biblical Understanding and Wisdom cannot be gained from individual study or from other people. True Biblical Understanding comes only from God - As the Holy Spirit reveals to His own, the truths from God's word.

Am I angry - you bet I am! You Insulted my wife, but she will get over it (and so will I). Maybe next time you will think, before you go and run your mouth off about someone you know nothing about! But I doubt it!

[toiwnz]

I know I said in another thread (Obama the antichrist) that I would take a break for a from the site but I just couldn't help reading what other said on different subjects. We all know that God is not the author of confusion. The above dialogue is evidence that the divider is amongst the group. I'm sure that dilligent the administrator didn't have this in mind when he created the forum. There's christians talking about other christians wives. We have christians not turning the other cheek. We have christians arguing back. We have christians fighting with each other and questioning each other's salvation. Is this really what things have come to? What would Jesus think of us after reading all of this? There is obviously division in this forum and we all know who causes division.

In my opinion there needs to be some serious change that needs to take place before we serious injure a brother or sister's faith. We must remember that our brothers and sisters are God's children too and when we hurt them we're hurting His children. Some on the outside would say to get rid of the forum all together but I think it can serve some good. We must realize that when you have people of different denominations, and ideas, and doctrines you'll run into the problem that's happening now. I know dilligent said he only wants to lightly monitor the threads but it seems that some heavy moderating is needed.

The main point is where is the Love that our entire faith is based on? No matter if you believe in dispensationalism, pre trib, post-trib, mid-trib, lost of salvation, no lost of salvation, the antichrist being Obama, McCain, or some other leader that pops up every ten years. It doesn't matter if you believe we can drink wine moderatly or not at all. Or if you believe KJVO or the other versions are ok. NONE of those things really matter if you don't have love.

If we say we love the Lord but hate our brother what good are we? If all of the law hangs on Love but we don't have it what good are we? If salavation is the best picture of Love and we don't have Love what good are we? Where is the unity people? Where is the unity that we are all sinners no matter our spiritual education or spiritual IQ and that we need a savior? Simplicity. Often we get so high minded when learn a new doctrine or think we know something more than others. But we need to look back every once in a while to the simple things and reflect and rejoice on those II Corinthians 11:3

Come on christian (CHRIST LIKE) brothers and sisters. Let's do better. The name christian has been drugged threw the mud by the world. Let's live up to our name and be CHRIST LIKE in all points of our lives including these forums

[chette777]

We do not hate Stephanos. we have indeed shown him love and to others. though we love Gophgetter their is a time to turn off the microphone.

Paul's ministry was never one of harmony, and it may have look like there was not love at times, but there was, just like here on the Post.

Acts 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

1 Corinthians 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to
morrow we die.

Galatians 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

1Tim5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.


so you can see we often think that ministry is a love love love like the Hippy movement of the late 60's.

Know love comes in many forms and we must use whatever form that dictates the best result for all involved.

When people question the sure Salvation doctirnes we do have a right to question their salvation. becuase if they were saved by they error then out of love we need to correct them and tell them the truth. How that is done may not seem loving to some but again we lack a great amount of interaction in posts like facial expressions, body lnguage and intonation of speech, so when we read them we need to be graceful.

[peopleoftheway]

Originally Posted by toiwnz

The main point is where is the Love that our entire faith is based on? No matter if you believe in dispensationalism, pre trib, post-trib, mid-trib, lost of salvation, no lost of salvation, the antichrist being Obama, McCain, or some other leader that pops up every ten years. It doesn't matter if you believe we can drink wine moderatly or not at all. Or if you believe KJVO or the other versions are ok. NONE of those things really matter if you don't have love.

Friend, I have not seen any post when any brother on the forum has come out and used the word "hate", the problem with a forum is this, we cannot see each other face to face, and understand by expression and animation so we are focused on how we, ourselves, interpret the delivery of the words.
I have tried to answer posts in grace, tried to explain "The simplicity that is in Christ" and yes it does all center on Love, The Love of Christ. But if any man comes along and preaches another christ, this is when it does matter. Loss of salvation is not the christ I know, The Christ I know is certainly powerful enough to keep my salvation.
Throughout scripture yes we are commanded to love our neighbor but we are also commanded to correct and rebuke those that teach another Gospel that is not the Gospel Of Jesus Christ
Galatians 1:6
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Reading Zechariah last night A certain verse comes to mind to apply to this post.
Zechariah 8:16-17
These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates:
And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the LORD.
I would seriously doubt, in fact, I am positive that George, Chette, Luke, Brandon, myself or anyone else that debated with gophgetter had ANY evil intention in their hearts, only to speak the truth. There is a huge difference from correction of the brethren (which is scriptural) "Tough Love" ,to outright evil and hatred. All I have witnessed was that tough Love that Christ himself delivered on several occasions.
"And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables" -John 2:15
Jesus hated the way the temple had become so far removed from truth, if this was done today he would be in Jail, on charges of breaching the peace, public vandalism and assault with a weapon!
Christ spoke harsh words to those that NEEDED TO HEAR THEM!
"O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." -Matthew 12:34
This was our LORD calling religious people evil, do you think anything has changed? has Christ changed? there are many evil religious people walking the face of the earth claiming to be Holy, we too are to hate this evil as Christ did.
He rebuked his own disciples! for the greater good!
"But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." -Matthew 16:23
Jesus made someone walk away, downbeat and saddened because he spoke the truth
"Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions." -Matthew 19:21-22
The bottom line is, If we all just simply Love each other with no correction, and no defence of "sound doctrine" then that is where the danger lies, thats the dangerous ground of ecumenism, and I certainly do not wish to compromise God's Word, nor his commandments as to "appear" more loving. I love the brethren, I love the righteous. The righteous and unrighteous will never co-exist it is not biblical in any sense
"An unjust man is an abomination to the just: and he that is upright in the way is abomination to the wicked." -Proverb 29:27
Sometimes what someone perceives as "hate" is not really hate but Love, its just that the person on the receiving end interprets it as hate, for example, many times as a child I recall telling my parents I hated them because they corrected me on something I was doing wrong, was this "hate" NO it was my Pride blinding me to the truth that was delivered with "Love"
Proverbs 16:18
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
All I have witnessed is that "truth" delivered in "Love" and interpreted as "hate"
If we don't speak the truth, who will? I am sure the apostle Paul offended many with the truth and I am also sure of the fact that he also, did this, IN LOVE

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by George

Stephen,

Now you've "got my goat"! (Euphemistically speaking of course!) Ever since you have come to this Forum you have been fairly careful to "straddle the fence" (like all good Sophists) and not declare yourself (at least not in language that is clearly understood) as to where you really stand on several issues.

Your "reluctance" (in your "biography" on this Forum) to not reveal any details about yourself personally (not your age nor "background") is instructive though, because it demonstrates someone who is "careful" not to reveal too much about himself.

But your remarks about my wife "Renee" are "over-the-top" and deserve to be dealt with - along with your Humanistic approach to the issues of life!

First of all your Smart-Alec statement: "First of all Renee, you need to relax." - Is the way that all Humanists (and Sophists) deal with people and statements that they disagree with. Did it ever occur to you that gophgetter affected my wife the same way you "claim" her statements affected you? Are you the only one with feelings on this Forum? I trow not!

I have avoided "dealing" with you since you first came on this Forum, because, after dealing with "Christians" for 50 years I can spot a Sophist fairly soon, and I refuse to engage people like you in conversation or debate because it is "an exercise in futility".

But when you come out and insult my wife, that is another matter!

Your supposed "concern" for gophgetter "concerns" me, because the man clearly is a heretic. Are you in the habit of defending heretics? Why all this "concern" for someone who is perverting the words of God? Hmmm? Your "concern" is misplaced - you should be more concerned about sound doctrine that is "pure" (without error) than someone who is clearly trying to lead God's people astray!

I have pointed out in a recent post that your "metaphor" of "throwing stones" is wrong and totally in error. Your thinking is so shot-through with Humanistic values that you cannot discern the simplest of Scriptural principles and precepts! You cannot paint gophgetters banning with a broad Humanistic brush such as: "you all have effectively rid yourselves of gophgetter. Throwing stones at everyone you think is wrong,".

Gophgetter is a heretic - we dealt with him according to the Scriptures, which you obviously disagree with. The fault was his - NOT ours! The error that you now embrace is yours - NOT ours! We have acted according to the Scriptures - you don't "like" the way we have conducted ourselves, even though the Bible is crystal clear that: "A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;" Titus 3:10. Your "problem" (and it is a serious "problem") is with the Scriptures, and ultimately with the God of the Bible. You REFUSE to believe what God has said about about heretics - or else IF you are in agreement with gophgetter you may be a heretic yourself (Please NOTICE the word IF!)

Are you saying that you are "stronger in the Scriptures" than my wife - because you may have mastered the Sophistical way of twisting and wresting Scripture out of context to make it say or "mean" something other than what God said?

Your sweeping condemnation of most of us on this Forum: "since I now see that this is the only acceptable viewpoint on these forums, despite diligents original intent which he expressed on http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2." is indicative of someone who is unwilling (or unable) to discern between a personal "viewpoint" and false doctrine or heresy.

Can't you see or discern that the doctrine that gophgetter was promoting was clearly heresy and NOT just a Humanistic "viewpoint"?

My wife singled you out, because, from the minute gophgetter joined the Forum, it was obvious to her (and to me - and I'm sure to others on this Forum) that you were "emboldened" to support him and his heresy (kind of like "coming out of the closet" - if you know what I mean!)

If you knew my wife, like I have for the past 47 years you wouldn't have dared insult her the way you have done. I truly doubt if there are 100 Christian women in the whole of the United States that could "measure up" to her when it comes to being a faithful wife, helpmate, and mother. For the 50 years I have been saved I have NEVER MET a single woman ("Christian" or otherwise) that has measured up to her selflessness and charity. If you don't believe me - look at her life verse under her name!)

You have stated: "I have always stated that salvation is by grace through faith. I do add that salvation is conditional upon "faith" . . ." Our salvation is conditioned on our BELIEF in the Lord Jesus Christ (according the Bible record) and HIS FAITH - that He gave us. You are free to believe anything that you want to, but I would caution you that you are ADDING to the word of God IF you "think" that there is something you can "DO" to KEEP IT! The fact that you "can't see" something in the Bible doesn't make it untrue - it may be that God isn't showing you something because of your UNBELIEF!

The rest of your "post" is so full of "Humanistic drivel" that I refuse to deal with it, except to say that for someone who professes to believe the Bible - you show a remarkable inability to discern even the simplest Scriptural principles and precepts! You can obtain "knowledge" of the Bible from study and other people; you can even obtain rudimentary discernment from a study of the Bible and other people; but true Biblical Understanding and Wisdom cannot be gained from individual study or from other people. True Biblical Understanding comes only from God - As the Holy Spirit reveals to His own, the truths from God's word.

Am I angry - you bet I am! You Insulted my wife, but she will get over it (and so will I). Maybe next time you will think, before you go and run your mouth off about someone you know nothing about! But I doubt it!

Please don't be angry George. You've said a lot of things in this post that are completely false about me and I'm not angry. I forgive you brother. I hope you and Renee can forgive me for the inapropriate comment I made. It's such a shame that you don't know me as I am. You have made so many assumptions about me that I sure wish I could help you to see are wrong. I will tell you about myself, since you think I have something to hide.

My name is Stephen, I live in Wenatchee Washington. My family comes from South Africa after my Grandfather was threatened to leave or face imprisonment for preaching (he's a presbyterian minister) that blacks and whites are equal in God's eyes. My early years are pretty straight forward. I grew up in as you can guess, a Christian home, but I didn't want anything to do with Christ up until about 10 years ago. At that time I was heavily involved with drugs and alcohol, and was an adamant believer in science and evolution. However one night I was watching a film that had some pseudo-Christian content (basically it was a movie I wouldn't recommend to others) and as I sat there I had an experience that is a bit hard to describe. I felt like the light switch of my soul had been turned on, and in that moment I knew that God was real and that Christ Jesus was indeed His resurrected Son. I gave my life to Christ that night. This however was more of a head commitment and I hadn't at that time truly understood what it meant to live for Christ. Fast forward through some difficult years (never stopped believing once throughout this difficult time, thank the Lord for His promises to preserve His own!). About 5 years ago I met a man that gave up his worldly life to literally hitch-hike from town to town preaching the gospel. His name was Dante and he shook my world. To this day I have yet to meet a man who embodies what it means to live for Christ in such a way as did Dante. He told me I should give up the NIV and read the KJB, praise Jesus! I didn't agree with him at that time, but he gave me some tracts from Tabernacle Baptist Church on the subject that eventually helped me to see that I should put away the perversions and read the Bible God uses As I started to read the KJB God began to bless me in ways I could never have imagined. I tell people that I began to truly see the truth and never got over it. I was so hungry for the Word that I would read entire books each day, and to this day I still like to do it that way, read entire books instead of short passages that is. Anywho, another fast forward. I started to notice discrepancies within the church I was attending at that time. I really struggled, to be honest. I tried to voice my concerns about the way things were done in those churches, and how they were not very biblical. I rubbed a lot of people the wrong way at that time (mostly because of my firm stance for the KJB). Eventually I got to a place where I was just fed up and wanted to know if there was a truly biblical church somewhere. I knew there had to be, since it would not be within God's character to not leave a remnant. It was at this time I heard about the Anabaptists of the 16th century, and their descendants the Hutterite and Mennonite. I was so amazed with these people, and their dedication to living a biblical life that I saught them out, and found an extremely conservative Mennonite church out in Deer Park Washington. They were quite open to me, and let me come live with them for a week of revival meetings. I love these brethren as my own family. I wish to learn everything I can from these dedicated Christians as I can. However, it is expensive to bus to Deer Park all the time, so I finally found a good Bible Believing Baptist church here in town recently and I attend there now. I love these folks as well. I'm still quite new there so I don't have much to say yet, but I forsee a beautiful relationship in the future, and am so blessed to finally have transportation (I just finally bought my motorcycle) and can now attend church on a regular basis again. So that's a basic (very) rundown of my spiritual roots. By day (lol) I'm a carpenter and excavator operator. Me and my boss are building a small shop/house out in an organic orchard for some folks at the moment, which is pretty cool. Before this I was a computer technician by day, and open source software developer by night (http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-mpd/ was the last project I wrote). I however, realized that writting code was quite literally consuming my life, and I decided it was better if I found something different to do for the rest of my life. I would like to go to school someday, since my goal in life is to be a champion of God's word like some of the guys I've met here are. I want to be able to defend the KJB in a constructive way, and see as many Christians getting back into their Bibles as I can. Nothing excites me more than when I hear about a Christian that is getting into the Word of God.

Whelp there you go George. I hope I haven't left out anything that might lead you to assume I'm hiding anything, especially any sort of agenda. I hope you take this post as an attempt to make amends to things.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

[Biblestudent]

Glad to read that testimony.

Well, if someone would say that dispensationalism is false, I believe a SOLDIER of the Lord has all the duty to be on the DEFENSIVE (Phil.1) and OFFENSIVE (2 Tim. 4). It's good and pleasant for brethren to dwell together in unity, but we are to be united in the truth (1Cor.13:6) and rebuke (Prov. 27:5) heresy in order for true love to exist among the brethren.

In Acts 15, there was "no small" debate in that "Bible conference", and yet maintained the "right hands" of fellowship where it is proper and possible.