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  #51  
Old 03-03-2009, 09:40 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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You Gap guys are reading things into the Bible that simply aren't there. Look at every verse in Genesis chapter 1. The first verse starts "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". Now, look closely, every single verse after that starts with the word "And" which ties them all together. And Gen 2:1 is tied or connected to Chapter 1 by the word "Thus". This is the whole purpose of these words, to tie or connect. So, there is no gap.

Noah's flood could easily account for the fossil record. It was not just rain, although rain alone could do the job, but "all" the fountains of the deep were broken up. This catastrophe was on a gigantic scale that I don't think anyone can truly appreciate. Geysers shooting thousands of feet into the atmosphere would freeze and cover areas quickly with snow, probably hundreds of feet deep. This would account for the wooly mammoths and such (dinosaurs have also been found in ice). There would have been massive floods and landslides burying animals quickly where they would fossilize under tremendous pressure. Much of the strata layers would be formed, it is no different than putting different soils in a glass of water, then shaking. You will see layers form very quickly. The idea of strata layers forming from millions and billions of years of meteorite dust is not even accepted by evolutionists anymore. They have found petrified trees who's trunk passes through many layers proving the deposits happened almost immediately. Vast areas of vegetation would be quickly buried and form oil under heat and pressure. That's where we get our gasoline from folks!

On the sixth day, God declared every thing he had made VERY GOOD. Look at the verses before Gen 1:31, they only say good. So, when God had completed his six day creation he was delighted with his work.

Now you can say whatever you want about Satan or Lucifer rebelling against God between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2, but it doesn't say anything about that in my Bible. And when Gen 1:31 says God saw "every thing he had made" that would have to include Satan and all the angels that later rebelled. But as of the sixth day, Satan had not rebelled against God, and so he could rightfully call every thing He had made VERY GOOD. That's what it says.

When did Satan rebel? No one knows for sure, but we have some information that gives a very "general" time. We know for instance, that Adam did not "know" his wife until after they sinned and were sent out of the garden. Afterward, Cain, and then Abel were born. We can fairly safely assume that Cain and Abel reached adulthood before Cain slew Abel. They were very likely in their 20s or 30s as they both had livelihoods. After Cain slew Abel, Eve gave birth to Seth. And we know precisely when Seth was born.

Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

So, assuming that Cain was at least 30 years of age when Seth was born, Then Satan could have rebelled anytime between day six of creation until Adam was about 100 years old.

But that is all we know. There is no mention of a gap between Gen 1:1 and 1:2. It is not there.

Satan and the angels may have been included under "heaven" in Gen 1:1. Now they would have several days to observe God's creation. The earth is described as "without form, and void" in verse 2. To me, "without form" would suggest the earth had no features. It was a ball covered with water. The word "void" to me would suggest it had no life as yet.

Now, we don't see any real features on the earth itself until verses Gen 1:9-13 which was the third day. This may have been when God "laid the foundations of the earth" in Job 38:4. I don't know what others think, but I used to build houses when I was young. The first thing you do is lay the foundation to support the structure above it. Until the dry land appeared, there was no structure, the earth was completely covered in water and without form.

So, if Satan and the angels were created on day one, they would have observed God's creation, and would have observed when God laid the foundations of the earth on day three.

Also, on day three God created vegetation, so not only was the world not without form any longer, it was no longer void either.

Last edited by Winman; 03-03-2009 at 09:57 PM.
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  #52  
Old 03-03-2009, 11:37 PM
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  #53  
Old 03-03-2009, 11:39 PM
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if rebellion took place between day one and day six then God could not declare, Gen1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Study the words without form in Hebrew one word) and English (two words) they mean destroyed, destruction, desolation and lie waste. as much as it could mean without shape. in three place we see the form of men is changed but none clearer than in Isa 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: if Christs form could be marred and made ruinous why not the earth? you see without form can mean to have its form changed not just without shape.

When was time established? Verses Gen 1:3-5. Gen 1:1 is not day one. Gen 1:2 is not day one. Gen1:3-5 are day one. the Beginning is before day one. Day one did not exist before the light came in contact with Darkness which cause a division of light and dark or day and night. with this creation of time God restricts everything after it to a literal 24 hour day (evening and morning) You are assuming that Gen1:1, 2 are the first day. but that is not what it says. the fist day began with light being called forth and the creation of time our current 24/7 time quantum (measurement).

MC and I are not for the strata theory of an old earth. we are for one that came from Noah's flood. while I understand the argument of Geologist on his site I still cant see his view as 100% accurate.

If Lucifer were to rebel sometime after Adam was expelled from the garden as you say before Seth was born. Where did the serpent come from that tempted Eve before any sons of Adam were born. No Lucifer (Satan) fell sometime before the final day of creation, and because there was not interruption in God's 6Day creation or God's day of rest, it is safe to assume it happened sometime before Gen1:2

Glad you have your view and we are to have ours. nothing to go bozo over

Last edited by chette777; 03-04-2009 at 12:02 AM.
  #54  
Old 03-04-2009, 12:24 AM
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Winman,

According to your view of Lucifer's fall.

He could not have fell before day 6 because God called all he had created very good.

He didn't fall on day Seven for God was at rest and there is not interruption of that rest recorded,

So he fell between the 8th day and the 9th day.

The 8th day God spent naming animals with Adam at the end he makes Eve. Adam awakes the 9th day to find Eve and they are in the garden (Adam hasn't known his wife yet) and the serpent shows up to tempt Eve, succeeds and Adam falls into transgression. and in the cool of the 9th day God come to walk and low and behold he find s them Conscience of good and evil. and kills an animal in time for the evening sacrifice and kicks them out of the Garden.

There is not enough time for Lucifer to gather one third of the Angels of heaven, exalt his throne (by the way where is his throne?) and then be caught by God (who is on the earth naming animals with Adam), judged with all the angels, and cast down to the earth to tempt Eve.

sorry the logical time sequence doesn't fit unless you make Lucifer equal with God in omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence.

No Lucifer had to have rebelled before the earth was placed into a 24/7 TQ in Gen.1:3-5 and being he is lock onto this firmament as we are, he is limited to that also.

I want you to notice also. in every instance of God dealing with men he has limited himself to this 24/7 TQ. God has never violated that since he created it in Gen1:3-5 and he wont until all that we calculate times, and seasons is rolled up as a scroll and flees from his face in Rev 20.

Last edited by chette777; 03-04-2009 at 12:37 AM.
  #55  
Old 03-04-2009, 02:35 AM
kevinvw kevinvw is offline
 
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No, I'm not twisting anything, I'm plainly reading Gen 2:1 without assuming that Gen 1:1-2 are not part of the first day and then twisting Gen 2:1 to not mean that on the 7th day God had finished creating the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them.

You don't know what being in a timeless state is like so how do you know how long God "waited" (only something that can be done in time) to make something to get some praise and glory out of.

Yes I believe that God created the angels and cherubim and seraphim to be his "cheer leading squad" in the beginning. Isn't it God's nature want to get glory out of His creation? Why wouldn't He make something to view His great and mighty power to command things into existence and glorify Him for it? I think God created hell according to His foreknowledge, just like the human race was predestined to be able to become part of the body of Christ before the foundation of the world according to his forknowledge. I agree God didn't need light to see or something, God is light. I think this could easily just be God separating the light from darkness and declaring that when it's light out this is called the day and when it's dark out that's called the night. Since a day to us is a 24 hour period of time strictly because that's the amount of time it takes the earth to make one revolution (or the sun to revolve around the earth, pick your poison), I think it's foolish to say that day always means a 24 hour period of time or time in general especially because day isn't always a 24 hour period of time or time in general. We only view day being a specific time period because that is all it is to us now because day light depends on what time it is, but the Bible says that there is no day without light and no night without darkness, not just that it's day when it's time to be day and night when it's time to be night. If God never made the distinction between light and dark, and when the day is and when the night is, there just simply wouldn't be any because nothing exists or happens without God telling it to. I think God clearly tells us when time first comes in to play in Gen 1:1.

How do you get there only being 2 days in Gen 2 and Gen 3 anyway?

Like I said, I used to believe a non-evolutionary gap theory but I just don't see how you can get around the fact that the Bible says the beginning was the first six days and that during those six days all of creation was made without twisting and adding or subtracting to Gen 2:1-4 and Exo 20:11 (anything but just read it plainly) and not come up with the same result.

Last edited by kevinvw; 03-04-2009 at 02:48 AM.
  #56  
Old 03-04-2009, 06:57 AM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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Quote:

So he fell between the 8th day and the 9th day.

The 8th day God spent naming animals with Adam at the end he makes Eve. Adam awakes the 9th day to find Eve and they are in the garden (Adam hasn't known his wife yet) and the serpent shows up to tempt Eve, succeeds and Adam falls into transgression. and in the cool of the 9th day God come to walk and low and behold he find s them Conscience of good and evil. and kills an animal in time for the evening sacrifice and kicks them out of the Garden.
Where did you get that? Eve was created on the sixth day just like Adam.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And then in verse 31 we find this occured on the sixth day.

I would agree that Satan most likely did not rebel on the 7th day, otherwise God would have been at war and not at rest. But there is no mention of the 8th and 9th day in my Bible. I have no idea where you are getting that.

As far as "without form", I did look it up and it means to "lie waste" as a desert. If you had a garden, but did not plant in it, it would "lie waste". It does not give destruction as the primary meaning. This is where you are going wrong, you are picking a definition to agree with your preconceived idea.

As for the serpent, that could have happened anytime after the finished creation up till about when Adam was about 100 years old as I posted before. We have no idea how long Adam and Eve lived in the garden before they sinned, except we do know Cain and Abel were born after they sinned, that Cain slew Abel, and that Seth was born after this when Adam was 130 years old.

I also don't agree that time started in Gen 1:3. I believe it started when God said "In the beginning". What does the word beginning mean? The word cannot be defined without the concept of time.

You need to quit listening to false teachers.

Last edited by Winman; 03-04-2009 at 07:03 AM.
  #57  
Old 03-04-2009, 07:30 AM
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chette777 chette777 is offline
 
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Ok my mistake, but it is a little one I had a momentary lapse of memory. After the 7th day of rest then in comes Satan to tempt Eve. So God come on the 8th day and finds the both aware of good and evil. makes a evening sacrifice and then send them out of the garden on the 9th day.

No problem for me. but you still have to have Lucifer rebelling with no mention of it during the 7th or 8th day before the temptation of Eve. and that would be impossible for Lucifer is does not have the attributes of God.

certainly Lucifer did not fall after Adam was expelled from the Garden before the Birth of Seth as you have stated. Maybe you had a momentary memory lapse too. cause Satan already tempted Eve and they were already out of Eden before Seth was ever in the picture.

logical sequential time measurement allows for the day after the 7th to to be the first day of the next week or the 8th day. and so forth.

my meaning is the combination of both without and Form which matches the Hebrew meaning. Not only do we know Cain and able were born after they sinned we now that they were conceived after the fall. do yo start a mans life from when he was made or when he was born? Adam was made full grown safe to assume his days were numbered from the time he was kicked out of the garden and not before. which would probably have been day 8 or 9 or the first or second day of the second week. we are only told that Adam was 130 when he had Seth. and you are assuming that was 30years after Cain Able were born because they both made their own offering to God and your theology teaches you that men had to be 30 to be priests. all assumption you have placed on that time period. No where in the Bible does it say Adam was 100 when he had Cain and Able

there could have been a longer period of time between the death of Able and expulsion of Cain and the birth of Seth than you are allowing. all lineage of Adam starts with Seth. so it could have been a lot longer than you think they were out than whenthe birth the twins and their fight and Cains expulsion.

you have 100years of missing time to account for with no biblical verse for it either

Last edited by chette777; 03-04-2009 at 07:51 AM.
  #58  
Old 03-04-2009, 07:56 AM
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reminder to those who like to Bible box.

this form is entitled NON-Evolution Gap theory to get discussion on that topic.

it was not setup to argue that there is not gap or is a gap. that argument is in another post.

So if you have anything you would like to post about a NON-Evolution Gap Theory great we would love to hear it. Even geologist word are encouragement for this forum. we have already heard enough of the other view we are trying to have this discussion on the current forum title if you all don't mind

Kevin and Geo thanks for the positive feed back. Winman go fight in your corner for a while
  #59  
Old 03-04-2009, 11:21 AM
kevinvw kevinvw is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
Ok my mistake, but it is a little one I had a momentary lapse of memory. After the 7th day of rest then in comes Satan to tempt Eve. So God come on the 8th day and finds the both aware of good and evil. makes a evening sacrifice and then send them out of the garden on the 9th day.

No problem for me. but you still have to have Lucifer rebelling with no mention of it during the 7th or 8th day before the temptation of Eve. and that would be impossible for Lucifer is does not have the attributes of God.

certainly Lucifer did not fall after Adam was expelled from the Garden before the Birth of Seth as you have stated. Maybe you had a momentary memory lapse too. cause Satan already tempted Eve and they were already out of Eden before Seth was ever in the picture.

logical sequential time measurement allows for the day after the 7th to to be the first day of the next week or the 8th day. and so forth.

my meaning is the combination of both without and Form which matches the Hebrew meaning. Not only do we know Cain and able were born after they sinned we now that they were conceived after the fall. do yo start a mans life from when he was made or when he was born? Adam was made full grown safe to assume his days were numbered from the time he was kicked out of the garden and not before. which would probably have been day 8 or 9 or the first or second day of the second week. we are only told that Adam was 130 when he had Seth. and you are assuming that was 30years after Cain Able were born because they both made their own offering to God and your theology teaches you that men had to be 30 to be priests. all assumption you have placed on that time period. No where in the Bible does it say Adam was 100 when he had Cain and Able

there could have been a longer period of time between the death of Able and expulsion of Cain and the birth of Seth than you are allowing. all lineage of Adam starts with Seth. so it could have been a lot longer than you think they were out than whenthe birth the twins and their fight and Cains expulsion.

you have 100years of missing time to account for with no biblical verse for it either
No, you have no biblical basis of saying that Gen 2 and Gen 3 were only a day a piece. Winman on the other hand has a verse in Gen 5 that says Adam lived 130 years until he had Seth.

Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

What is Gen 4 to you? Is that just a day too?
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Old 03-04-2009, 12:24 PM
Winman Winman is offline
 
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certainly Lucifer did not fall after Adam was expelled from the Garden before the Birth of Seth as you have stated. Maybe you had a momentary memory lapse too. cause Satan already tempted Eve and they were already out of Eden before Seth was ever in the picture.
Maybe you are not following me. On the sixth day God saw every thing he had made and it was very good (not just good). So Satan was yet perfect.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

I agree with you that God rested on the seventh day. But after that, Satan could have taken up to approximately 100 years before he rebelled against God. We do not know how long Adam and Eve spent in the garden before they sinned.

Now, once they sinned and were expelled from the garden, sometime after that Adam knew Eve and Cain was born, then Abel. Cain and Abel must have reached adulthood before Cain slew Abel as they both had livelihoods. It was after Abel was slain that Seth was born, which we know happened when Adam was 130 years old. Eve of course, was the very same age.

So there was roughly 100 years available from the sixth day of creation until Adam and Eve sinned and were expelled from the garden. Of course, we don't know for sure how long after being expelled that Cain was conceived. Satan may have tempted Eve 50 years after the sixth day of creation (just an example). They could have waited many years after being expelled before coming together. But I seriously doubt that knowing human nature.

But time began at the beginning mentioned in Gen 1:1. It is simple and straightforward.

Last edited by Winman; 03-04-2009 at 12:31 PM.
 

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