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Old 02-18-2009, 06:26 PM
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A true Calvinist rejects none of the TULIP. anything less is not what is known as Calvinism. it is generally just people who haven't got it all rightly divided in areas of the terms elect, church, chosen, and the different dispensations with different Gospels or ways to be saved.

I am not Saying Will is that I like. Will's study's have shown some great effort in showing the infallibility, integrity and preservation of Gods Word in the KJV. but we all have our weak points
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Old 02-18-2009, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
A true Calvinist rejects none of the TULIP. anything less is not what is known as Calvinism. it is generally just people who haven't got it all rightly divided in areas of the terms elect, church, chosen, and the different dispensations with different Gospels or ways to be saved.

I am not Saying Will is that I like. Will's study's have shown some great effort in showing the infallibility, integrity and preservation of Gods Word in the KJV. but we all have our weak points
Any Calvinist or Reformed doctrine is a HUGE weak point. It is major leaven and should not be ignored.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:42 PM
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Will Kinney's articles on the KJB have zero calvinism in them.
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Old 02-18-2009, 10:58 PM
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Will Kinney's articles on the KJB have zero calvinism in them.
Right, but if that sort of thing starts to shew itself it should be dealt with in a biblical fashion.

Peace and Love,
Stephen
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Old 02-19-2009, 01:55 PM
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Default Re: "CALVINISM: Sound Doctrine?"

Aloha all,


Sorry for the delay, but this part of the study has turned out to be the most difficult - so far. We are now ready to examine the third main tenet of Calvinism in the light of God’s Holy word:

T.U.L.I.P. {the famous acronym associated with Calvinistic beliefs}

L =“Limited Atonement”(also known as Particular Atonement)

Calvinists state:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

The fact that the word “LIMITED” only shows up once in the Scriptures, and the only use of the word in that one single verse being peculiarly anti-Calvinistic [
Psalms 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and LIMITED the Holy One of Israel.] should have given John Calvin (or some of his followers) at least pause in using it to describe the “Atonement”.

Before I begin my comments on the third “pillar” (premise) of Calvinistic doctrine - “Limited Atonement” (and as brother Forrest has said: “which I personally think is the most heretical doctrine in the wilting T.U.L.I.P arrangement.”), I believe it is necessary to determine, as best we can, what the “Atonement” is all about.

Words are strange and peculiar things. Our Lord and Saviour is described as “The Word”.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Why would God choose to describe The Son as “The Word”, unless He was trying to convey to us that there is a constant, persistent, enduring, indissoluble, permanent, perpetual, everlasting, and eternal connection between “The WORD” and God’s “words”?

God’s words (spoken or written) are powerful:

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

The Scriptures state that the Lord Jesus Christ spoke all of creation into existence, and that all of creation is upheld “by the word of His power”. They also state that the words that Christ spoke are “life”. Peter said that “thou (the Lord Jesus Christ) hast the words of eternal life!

Like I said at the beginning, words are strange and peculiar things. God has used words (spoken & written) to convey His thoughts and His ways to mankind from the very beginning of the creation of Adam up to the present day; and men and women have used words ever since to express their thoughts, feelings, beliefs, ideas, etc.

So the question arises – WHAT are words? {Check the Dictionary for the exhaustive definition} I believe that words not only express most of those things that are said about them in the Dictionaries; but more than that – words (spoken or written) paint a verbal “picture” of our thoughts, feelings, beliefs, ideas, etc.; and not only ours, but God has used His words to “illustrate” for mankind His thoughts and His ways.

By now you are probably saying – What’s the point? The point is that God has been “illustrating” to mankind (through His actions and His words) the absolutely devastating and destructive effect SIN has had on mankind from the moment that Adam fell up to today; and the “Terrible Price” that God requires to “Atone” for SIN (Sins). - “THE ATONEMENT”!

From the first sacrifice – the shedding of blood and the death of an innocent animal in the Garden of Eden to “cover” Adam & Eve’s sin; to Abel’s “more excellent” sacrifice; to Noah’s offering (of every clean beast & every clean fowl); to Job’s burnt offerings for his children according to the number of them all”; to Abraham’s “offering” of his ONLY son; to Moses and Aaron and the establishment of the Law and all the “ordinances of divine service” (which included the daily sacrifices for the individual sins of the people of Israel, and the once a year perfect, clean, unblemished male animal sacrifice for the nation of Israel); God was “illustrating” (or painting a picture) that SIN = DEATH; that God required the BLOOD of an innocent, unblemished MALE SACRIFICE to “cover” (not Atone for) people’s sins.

Over and over again, as those innocent animals died and shed their blood, God was “illustrating” to all of mankind and to Israel that He required a “Payment” for sin; and only a perfect, unblemished, innocent male sacrifice would do. Over and over again He was “painting a picture” of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Back then, it was the actual shedding of blood and death that “illustrated” God’s point, today it’s the reading (or hearing) of those actual events that “illustrates” for us the same point.

Now the question arises, when the high priest went once a year into “the Holy of Holies” to offer the blood of the sacrifice for his sins and the sins of the people of Israel was that offering ONLY for the “saints”, or was it for ALL of the people? Were ALL of the people saints? Read the Books of Moses. Read Judges, 1&2 Samuel, 1&2 Kings, 1&2 Chronicles, etc. Read the Book of Hebrews. How many times did the people of Israel sin? (The testimony of the Scriptures testifies that most of the time it was the “majority” of the people that sinned.) Do you think that when the high priest went into the Holy Of Holies to offer the blood of the sacrifice that that offering was ONLY for the saints of old? Could anyone prove that by Scripture? I trow not!

And now we come to John the Baptist, what did he have to say about the Lord Jesus Christ?

John 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Now we know: “For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.” [Hebrews 10:4] So from the time of Adam’s fall up until the time of Christ’s sacrifice, all of the shedding of the blood of all of those innocent animals did was “cover” the sins of those who sacrificed or those for whom the sacrifice was made. In the case of Israel the once a year sacrifice was made for ALL of the people. In the case of “the Lamb of God” (The Lord Jesus Christ), His sacrifice was “for the sins of the WHOLE world”! [1 John 2:2]

And so the ATONEMENT for sin was accomplished by the Lord Jesus Christ. He fulfilled all of the Scriptural requirements. He is the ONLY ONE that fit the “picture” that God had “illustrated” (by His initial “example” in the Garden and by His word) for mankind for four centuries. He paid the “terrible price” that God required, and which no one else could. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and NOT for ours ONLY, but ALSO for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.” [1 John 2:2] The Holy Scriptures unequivocally state that that terrible sacrifice was made “for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD” – NOT just for the “elect”. But in order for that sacrifice (for “the Whole World) to be effective in the life of each individual, they must DO something: They must “BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved”.

So far, every time we come around to examining the various Calvinistic doctrines we come face to face with “BELIEF”, “BELIEVE”, “BELIEVED”, OR “BELIEVING”. And although I am repeating myself for the umpteenth time – the problem with Calvinism is that by not rightly dividing the word of God, concerning man’s attributes, Calvin (and all who have followed him) have confused “WORKS”, which are a function and operation of the flesh, with “BELIEF”, which is a function and operation of the heart. And in doing so, they have ended up with a doctrine which, at every turn, CHANGES the Holy word of God and makes it say something other than what it truly says.

Calvinists state:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus onlyborethesinsoftheelect.

I believe it behooves us to examine what the Bible has to say about WHO the Lord Jesus Christ died and shed His for, and see if God’s words are in agreement with Calvinism:

THE WORLD

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
41 And many more believed because of his own word;
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The preceding Bible verses are the strongest verses in opposition to the Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement” that I could find. Can ANYONE honestly say (or even claim) that the testimony of the Scriptures agrees with the doctrine of Limited Atonement”? According to Calvinism:Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect.”With all of the clear and unmistakable testimony from Scripture, how could ANYONE make such statements that are so unequivocally in opposition to the simple and unambiguous teachings from God’s word?

The Scriptures stated nine (9) times that Christ is the Saviour of the “Whole World”; or that He came to save the world; etc.; etc. How many times must God say something before Calvinists will accept it? Read the statements:

Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world”; “the world through him might be saved; “this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world”; “For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world”.; “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself”; “the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world”;

And then the three (3) strongest statements from Scripture in opposition to this doctrine – “
I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.” {Christ didn’t say - ‘to save the elect!}; the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world”; {John didn’t say that the Father sent the Son: ‘to be the Saviour of the elect!}; “he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world”.

How can ANYONE SAY:Jesus died only for the elect." or "Jesus only bore the sins of the elect.”

I listed the verses that I believe are the strongest in opposition to the Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement”. Unlike those that will follow (“all”, “all men”, etc.) the Calvinists cannot CHANGE the word “world” to mean something other than what it means – “THE WORLD”!

The following verses present more support against the doctrine of Limited Atonement”. However, many of these verses will be “turned on their head” and challenged by Calvinists by the use of QUESTIONS: ‘Does “ALL” really mean ALL – Doesn’t it really mean ‘ALL THE ELECT’? ‘Does “ALL MEN” really mean ALL MEN – Doesn’t it really mean ‘ALL THE ELECT’? ‘Does “EVERY MAN” really mean EVERY MAN – Doesn’t it really mean ‘ALL THE ELECT’? You see how it goes?

ALL MEN

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1 Timothy 4:10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I believe the Bible record that God: “would have ALL MEN to be saved”! Salvation is for ALL – Christ “died for ALL”. But NOT ALL will BELIEVE and RECEIVE! I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ tasted “death for EVERY MAN” – NOT just the elect!

I believe that God “is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that BELIEVE” {There’s that word – “BELIEVE”again!}The Lord Jesus Christ is the SAVIOUR of ALL MEN – But, in order for God’s salvation to be effective (efficacious) in each individual, a man (or woman) must DO something in order to be saved: They must “BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ” [Acts 16:30-31].

I believe that 2Corinthians 5:14-15 defines ALL - in regards to WHO Christ died for: “that if one died for all, {ONLY THE ELECT?} then were all {ONLY THE ELECT?}dead”. The question arises – are (were) ONLY THE ELECT DEAD? Do ONLY THE ELECT DIE? Don’t ALL (ALL MEN) DIE? If ALL (EVERYONE - Hebrews 9:27) DIE, and Christ “died for ALL” – then WHO is it that Christ died for? ONLY THE ELECT – are they kidding? Christ died for ALL – But ONLY those who BELIEVE are saved – what’s so complicated about that?

And now we will move on to “Whosoever”. {And “whosoever” is NOT “Limited” to the Elect ONLY!} If God meant for “whosoever” to be ONLY the “elect”, He would have used the word “elect” in place of the word “whosoever” wherever the word shows up in the Holy Scriptures! If “whosoever” does NOT mean the “elect” ONLY – then Calvinism is guilty of CHANGING the Holy words of God - But that wouldn’t be the first time!

WHOSOEVER

John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Did you notice “believeth”? When it comes to salvation, you can’t escape BELIEF! It’s God’s GRACE; It’s God’s LOVE; It’s God’s MERCY; it’s Christ’s SACRIFICE; it’s God’s GIFT; It’s Christ’s FAITH; but it’s our “BELIEF”! A person MUST BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to get saved – it’s that simple. [2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.]

Whenever a doctrine gets so complicated and convoluted that it becomes necessary to CHANGE the Holy words of God in order to prove a point, or ADD words that cannot be found in the Bible – I automatically suspect “someone” of subtilty complicating “the simplicity that is in Christ”, and introducing “leaven” into the body of Christ.

We now move on to the next set of Scriptures in opposition to the Calvinistic doctrine of Limited Atonement”:

WE - OUR - US – I – ME

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

1 Timothy 1:15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Romans 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Ephesians 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

The preceding verses, if taken out of the context of all of the rest of the preceding verses, can be misconstrued to mean “only the elect”. But a careful inquiry and investigation into the verses will demonstrate that they must all be rightly divided in light of the testimony of all of the preceding verses that I have cited. {Remember: A verse “out of context” = “a PRETEXT”!}

For instance: [Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.] Did Christ “give Himself” ONLY for Paul? Of course not! The testimony of 1Timothy 2:6 says:Christgave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” {Context is everything!}

And what about all of the verses where it says that “Christ died for us”? What about all the US’s? Are they “Limited” only to Paul and to those whom he was addressing in his Epistles? Of course not! Are they “Limited” to US today? I trow not! Are they “Limited” to ONLY THE ELECT? If you were to take the verses ALONE; and separated, or tried to disassociate them from all of the other Scriptures presented here – you might be able to come up with a doctrine that taught that. But that method of dividing the word of truth would be dishonest and deceitful.

Christ died for “the sins of the whole world”; “Christ died for the ungodly”; “Christ died for us”; and “Christ died for me” – Can you disassociate or divorce all of the verses where it clearly says he died for “the sins of the whole world” from those where it says He “died for US”? I trow not! If that be the case then to “rightly divide the word of truth”, the teaching taken from ALL of the verses is simply that Christ died for “the sins of the whole world”, of which I, you, me, i.e. “US” are but a part.

And now we come to the most difficult verses in dealing with the doctrine of “Limited Atonement”.

Calvinists state:
Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

Let's examine the verses given in support of the Calvinistic doctrine of "Limited Atonement":
Quote:
Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
FACT: The verse doesn’t CHANGE the testimony of 1John 2:2. [“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”] And since there are no errors or contradictions in the Holy Bible, we must rightly divide the word of truth (spiritual discernment) to arrive at an understanding.

FACT: Christ died for “the sins of the whole world” - “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” [John 1:12]. However, only those who have BELIEVED on Him and who have RECEIVED him receive “remission of sins”. Just because the Lord Jesus Christ died for ALL, doesn’t mean that ALL are saved! He made the Sacrifice (for “the whole world) – it’s up to us to BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved [Acts 16:31]! I will deal with "many" shortly.

Quote:
Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
FACT: The use of this verse to “prove” Calvinistic doctrine illustrates the shallow understanding that John Calvin had in regards to the Holy word of God. Let us examine the verses within their proper “CONTEXT” shall we?

Quote:
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
{This is speaking about Christ’s return to earth to rule.}

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, AS a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
{This is NOT speaking about Christ’s “SHEEP”! Do you see the word “AS”? The Lord is using a “simile” to explain what is going to take place (the judgment of the NATIONS) immediately after He returns to the earth, at the beginning of His Millennial reign. On the one hand (the right), The Lord Jesus Christ is explaining that those NATIONS (the sheep) who treated the Jews kindly and helped and supported them, will get to live and go into His Kingdom. While on the other hand (the left) those NATIONS (the goats) who neglected or refused to help or assist the Jews, or those NATIONS who actively opposed them are going to be sent into “everlasting fire & punishment”. Read the verses (in CONTEXT) – these verses are NOT talking about the “atonement”, or New Testament salvation, or Christ’s “SHEEP”. These are in reference to THE JUDGMENT OF THE NATIONS, which will take place immediately after the end of the Great Tribulation. This is NOT THE “Judgment Seat of Christ” (for Christians), and NEITHER is it the “Great White Throne” Judgment (for the “dead”); this is “The Judgment of the Nations”! This is “rightly dividing the word of truth” -101! Couldn’t Calvin READ? Can his “followers” READ? Please read to the end of the Chapter. Do you see anything connected to the church, Christians, or New Testament salvation?}

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
I will say it again – where is Paul’s “Gospel” (the Gospel of the Grace of God) in all of the preceding verses? The verses clearly state that some NATIONS are going to “inherit the kingdom” (NOT “eternal life”) based on how they treated the Jews (Christ’s “brethren”) during the Tribulation; and some NATIONS are going to be cast into “everlasting fire” & “punishment” based on their mistreatment of the Jews (Christ’s “brethren”) during the Tribulation.

Can you see what a mess someone can get in - if they don’t “rightly divide the word of truth”? If John Calvin couldn’t get the rudimentary facts of Scripture straight here, what’s to say he had it right in his system of biblical interpretation and theological formulations– better known as the acronym: T.U.L.I.P.?

Quote:
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
FACT: The testimony of John 10:11 & 15 doesn’t CHANGE the testimony of 1John 2:2. [“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”] And since there are no errors or contradictions in the Holy Bible, we must rightly divide the word of truth to arrive at a spiritual understanding. The fact that the Lord Jesus Christ gave His life for “the sheep” doesn’t CHANGE the fact that He died for “the sins of the whole world”! He could do BOTH you know.

Quote:
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
FACT: The “them” in the CONTEXT are the Lord Jesus Christ’s DISCIPLES! What has this got to do with “Limited Atonement”?

Quote:
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
FACT: The testimony of John 6:44 doesn’t ALTER or CHANGE the testimony of 1John 2:2. [“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”] And since there are no errors or contradictions in the Holy Bible, we must rightly divide the word of truth to arrive at a spiritual understanding. The fact that - “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him”, doesn’t CHANGE the fact that He died for “the sins of the whole world”! A verse dealing with the Father drawing men to Christ does NOT ANNUL verses that clearly state that Christ is the Saviour of the world, and is the PROPITIATION for the sins of the whole world.

Quote:
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
AMEN! So what is the point? Does this ALTER or CHANGE what has already been established in the Holy Scriptures elsewhere? Does God’s Holy word have errors or contradictions in it? I trow not!

Quote:
Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Does the fact that Christ “loved the church and gave himself for it” NULLIFY the fact that He sacrificed Himself to take “away the sin of the world”, or that His sacrifice was made forthe life of the world”? Of course not! He could do both you know. [John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.] At this point - are you getting tired & weary of all this?

Quote:
Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Does the fact that Isaiah 53:12 states the “he bare the sin of many”; ALTER or CHANGE the testimony of all of the Scriptures that I have posted? - especially 1John 2:2: he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. I shall deal with "many" in my comments immediately following.

I have added three more verses that were not cited, but fall under the same category:

Quote:
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
These verses are in reference to the Lord Jesus Christ giving eternal life to “as many as thou (the Father) hast given Him”; and “as many the Lord our God shall call”; and “as many as were ordained to eternal life”. These verses have to do with “predestination” [Romans 8:29-30], which is based on the “foreknowledge” of God [1Peter 1:2], which is based on – God knowing before hand (before the foundation of the world) WHO would BELIEVE on Him and who would Not!

But all of this does not CHANGE the fact that: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” [John 3:16]

All three of these verses do NOT ALTER, CHANGE, or NULLIFY all of the verses that were presented in opposition to the doctrine of “Limited Atonement”; if they do – then there are “contradictions” in the Holy word of God, which, we know and are absolutely sure, that there are NONE!

The solution to an “apparent contradiction” in the Bible is to:

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

And the secret to “rightly dividing” is found in Isaiah:

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Can we identify the “many”?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

In this verse the “many” are born again children of God - Who become “the sons of God” by BELIEVING on His name, and whichreceive” Him the moment they BELIEVE. [John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.]

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. {The Scriptural “requirement” being - IF they BELIEVE!}

The “many” in Romans 5:15 are ALL MANKIND! Because of Adam’s offenceALL men (and women) DIE [1Corinthians 15:22] – NOT JUST THE ELECT! According to the Scriptures - “many” can sometimes mean “ALL”! We are commanded to study and to rightly DIVIDE; this takes spiritual discernment, understanding, and wisdom, which only God can give – a Bible school, college, or seminary CANNOT provide these things; and neither can any man who you may admire, or who you may be following.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. {The Scriptural “requirement” being - IF they BELIEVE!}

Because of Adam’s offence “judgment came upon all men to condemnation”. ALL men (and women) are under this judgment. “All men” means – “ALL MEN” – NOT JUST THE ELECT! In order to receive “the free gift” many must first BELIEVE. The “free gift” is offered to ALL, but the Scriptural requirement is that only those who BELIEVE can receive it. According to the Scriptures - “many” can sometimes mean “ALL”!

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. {The Scriptural “requirement” being - IF they BELIEVE!}

Because of Adam’s disobediencemany were made sinners”. We know that ALL men (and women) are sinners, so according to the Scriptures - “many” can sometimes mean “ALL”!
Does that mean that ALL men & women will “be made righteous”? Of course not! Again, the promise is to ALL, but the Scriptural requirement is that only those who BELIEVE can receive it.

Are we done? How about just one more?

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

According to the Holy Scriptures – the Lord Jesus Christ is not only the “Propitiation” for our sins, but He is the “Propitiation” for “the sins of the whole world”. How do we square that with Hebrews 9:28? It’s very simple really: According to the Scriptures - “many” can sometimes mean “ALL”!

In conclusion: God will have “all men to be saved” [1Timothy 2:4] – NOT just the elect; the Lord Jesus Christ “tasted death for every man” [Hebrews 2:9] – NOT just the elect; the Lord Jesus Christ is “the Saviour of the world” [1 John 4:14] – NOT just the elect; “Christ died for my sins, for our sins, and “for the sins of the whole world [Galatians 2:20; 1 Corinthians 15:3; 1John 2:2] – NOT just the elect!

The Bible states:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I believe the Scriptures as they are – NOT as John Calvin perceived them to be. If you want to get saved - ignore all of the complexity of Calvinism (or any other “ISM”) and just “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.” The “simplicity that is in Christ” was never meant to be so complicated!
  #46  
Old 02-20-2009, 03:16 AM
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chette777 chette777 is offline
 
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once again George, TOP NOTCH JOB! blessings to you for your hard work of study. I cut and paste the TUL into a folder with your name on it. can't wait for the IP.
  #47  
Old 02-21-2009, 09:18 AM
JOHN G JOHN G is offline
 
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Location: Newton, NC
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Thanks so much George. Great idea Chete777, I just did the same.
In Christ!
...the simplicity that is in Christ...2Cor. 11:3
  #48  
Old 02-21-2009, 06:30 PM
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Forrest Forrest is offline
 
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Brother George, the entire article on "Limited Atonement" was outstanding and provides strong Biblical defense of the faith which was once delivered unto us. Thank you for "earnestly" contending for THE faith.

I was especially moved by this.

Quote:
You wrote: Words are strange and peculiar things. Our Lord and Saviour is described as “The Word”.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Why would God choose to describe The Son as “The Word”, unless He was trying to convey to us that there is a constant, persistent, enduring, indissoluble, permanent, perpetual, everlasting, and eternal connection between “The WORD” and God’s “words”?
I believe that when we fully understand the power and the preeminence of the Lord Jesus Christ, we can believe nothing short of what the Holy Scripture clearly proclaims.

What type of "love" limits the atonement for my (our) sin to only an "elected or chosen" group of sinners? Yes, God is indeed Sovereign and can do as He chooses without any consultation or protest from me, but I am so thankful, grateful, and humbled that He included me in the whole, every, whosoever, and all plan of redemption.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Brother George. The Lord Jesus Christ that I know is the incarnate WORD and cannot be disconnected from God's written word. Personally, the written word is more powerful, alive, and understood when I purpose to make that connection.

How can a person truly know the grace, power, and sufficiency of Jesus Christ without fully believing He died for "all" men and that "whosoever" believes in and receives Him is saved?
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Thank you again for your labor of love.
  #49  
Old 02-22-2009, 12:07 AM
JerryW JerryW is offline
 
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George, Can you explain a couple things in regards to your post on Limited Atonement? Since you take the words "all men" and "whole world", in the majority of cases, as pertaining to every individual ever born(rather than simply saying it means not just the Jews but also the Gentiles) why would a loving God declare that he "wants all(as you define all) men to be saved", 1 Tim 2:4, when he knew way in advance not every human being is going to hear the Gospel message? Remembering that the "gospel is the power of God unto salvation" and "faith comes from hearing". In your post you use quite a few verses that contain the word "believe", and at the end of your post you have the phrase "JUST believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" Can you explain the meaning of 1 Cor 15:2,"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have BELIEVED IN VAIN"?
  #50  
Old 02-22-2009, 02:43 PM
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Luke Luke is offline
 
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Well, that's what the great white throne is for. Shall not the judge of the earth do right?

What about babies? They haven't heard the gospel, yet they are born in sin. They haven't trusted Christ, but they have not had a chance to. Before the great white throne, God judges men according to their works. The retarded, babies, and perhaps men who were seeking God, following their conscience, may stand before God and have a final opportunity to accept or reject truth. I don't know, but I know that when God says He all men to be saved, He wants all men to be saved.

In Genesis 3, God saved ALL men that were alive (Adam and Eve) by shedding blood for them.
 

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