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  #11  
Old 10-01-2008, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ericwgreene View Post
One of the subgroups of dispensationalism that bothers me is where they start to add works to salvation in other dispensations and during the Great Tribulation. People holding to such beliefs are usually Ruckmanites. Salvation is by grace through faith in ALL DISPENSATIONS and ALL COVENANTS. Any thoughts?
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Originally Posted by ericwgreene View Post
BibleStudent - are you saying that Jesus taught that people in other dispensations and during the Great Tribulation are saved by works and faith?
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BibleStudent - which dispensations or other time periods (such as the Great Tribulation) do you add "works" to salvation?
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Originally Posted by ericwgreene View Post
I am sorry, I was operating under the assumption that our frame of reference was from the Fall until the Second Coming.
As you can see by your posts (copied above) it seems that you are referencing ‘other’ and ‘ALL’ dispensations. I am sorry for any confusion.

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…Therefore, even after the Fall, Adam and Eve were saved by faith alone no personal works included.
I beg to differ. Were they saved by ‘faith’?

Adam and Eve had met God, in the garden, they interacted with Him, they knew Him, and did not need ‘faith’ in order to know that He is.

Those of us who have never seen Him, we have faith, we do not have proof.


”Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:27-29)


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Besides our faith in God does not save us. Even the devils believe in God and they tremble. We are saved because we place our faith and trust in Christ to save us. This is more than just a mere belief in God, but rather a specific trusting in God's Son, Jesus Christ, and the substitutionary atonement He made for us on the cross.
Faith in God is different from the devils, for they know Who God is, they called Jesus by His Title, His Name. They didn’t believe, as in having ‘faith’ that God exists, they KNEW.

Big difference, brother.
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  #12  
Old 10-01-2008, 02:05 PM
ericwgreene
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Adam and Eve had to have faith that God would save them. I am not speaking of faith in God versus personal experience with God. I am speaking of a faith in Jesus Christ to save us. Adam and Eve would require that same faith. Because that is not something they could have seen until death.
  #13  
Old 10-01-2008, 02:09 PM
ericwgreene
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As you can see by your posts (copied above) it seems that you are referencing ‘other’ and ‘ALL’ dispensations. I am sorry for any confusion.
We are examining salvation. The so called dispensation of innocence did not require salvation as Adam had not sinned. Salvation was not required until the second dispensation of conscience (I think it is called that). Salvation in this dispensation and all that follow is by grace through faith in Christ alone.
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Old 10-01-2008, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ericwgreene
We are examining salvation. The so called dispensation of innocence did not require salvation as Adam had not sinned. Salvation was not required until the second dispensation of conscience (I think it is called that). Salvation in this dispensation and all that follow is by grace through faith in Christ alone.
I beg to differ, brother. Salvation in this age (the Church Age, from Calvary to the Rapture) is indeed by grace and grace alone, through faith, with no admixture - - - not the slightest admixture - - - of works. That is rock-solid, basic Bible doctrine.

But it is a mistake to say that such will be the case "in all (ages) that follow." It will certainly not be the case during the Tribulation, when a man or woman is saved by enduring to the end (Mtt. 10:22). This endurance requires faith in Jesus Christ, plus works: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city (Rev. 22:14). An example of not "enduring to the end" would be taking the mark of the Beast: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name (Rev. 14:9-11). Some say, "Well, a Christian wouldn't (or couldn't) take the mark, or worship the Beast." No? Then why does the context - - - in fact, the very next verse - - - say, Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Of course, I'm only addressing the Tribulation in this post, not the situation in the Old Testament. That's another matter. But it's pretty clear that salvation in this age, and salvation in the Tribulation, are conditioned on dramatically different things.
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Old 10-02-2008, 06:55 PM
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Yes God has always brought salvation in EVERY dispensation ( except one) by grace through faith.

( I REALLY dislike it when people say that, I believe that it is a weak statement, a cop out.)

Yes salvation has been by grace through faith.

But faith in what?

What God said you needed to do to be saved.

Build a boat, keep the commandments, believe I am going to make a great nation from your offspring, love your brother, have faith in what Christ did and receive the faith of Christ, do not
take the mark etc...

PS: Adam was not saved by faith, he did not need faith. Faith is hope in something you do not see, Adam walked with God, talked with Him, even tried to hide from Him in the garden. No faith needed there.

Last edited by swordsman; 10-02-2008 at 07:03 PM. Reason: left out stuff
  #16  
Old 10-02-2008, 08:59 PM
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Faith is not what makes you believe, it is the substance of what you believe.
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Old 10-02-2008, 09:43 PM
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Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
  #18  
Old 10-03-2008, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
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Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Well I guess James did not know what he was talking about.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

dang, that pesty little book of James
  #19  
Old 10-03-2008, 08:47 AM
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This is my conclusion when one asks what they need to do to be saved or what does it take or what must they do or believe or ...

Well...

"I believe that ONLY Jesus saves.

What we do in this life demonstrates how much we believe."

That's my quote, and I am sticking to it.

I think of the astonished people who wondered when Jesus said hardly a rich man will enter Heaven---and who can be saved, was asked...
Jesus said only with God, yes?
Some years ago I was in a major discussion on line about our knowledge of doctrine and how important it was to know, etc., but something really hit me with the in depth discussion, that even our knowledge of doctrine will not save us.
And I think about every single Christian that I know, that I had ever come across, that I ever known, even right here on this forum, NOT ONE, no not one believes identically as another individual...for God made us all individuals, and we are all part of the Body of Christ, we are not one big giant eyeball or monstrous nose or something, but all at different levels, different thoughts, different backgrounds. Unfortunately, many do not all count each other Christians, although the world does...Except we might not be so elitist perhaps in times of persecution...or thinking about it spiritually around the Throne of God.
It is like looking at a physical Christian history book, no matter which one one chooses, one pretty much knows how Christianity started, but the end of the book is a free for all, so many thousands upon thousands of denominations, each one having different ideals, the pendulum is wide from one extreme to the other on just about every Christian doctrine. And most new churches probably started by un-reconciliation, arguments, and splits.
So does our knowledge, works, save us? I think we are in trouble, then, actually.

But God looks at the heart. We could even say that there are some places in the Bible that state, who finds salvation, and that is, those who fear HIM.
Which means that they believe in God...and reverence Him.
  #20  
Old 10-03-2008, 10:56 AM
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This is another case where proper "interpretation" of Scripture results in proper "application" of Scripture.

On the one hand, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

And on the other hand, "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" (James 2:20). James is simply teaching that when a person has faith in Christ, it results in genuine works. His letter is addressing the practical aspects of living the daily Christian life, not how to be saved from the penalty of sin.

We conclude that faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, (His death for our sins, burial, and resurrection), is by grace through faith and results in a life of good works.

"But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty" (Matthew 13:23).

In either case; eternal salvation and good works, "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17).
 

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