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Old 10-01-2008, 08:50 AM
ericwgreene
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Default Salvation = faith + works?

One of the subgroups of dispensationalism that bothers me is where they start to add works to salvation in other dispensations and during the Great Tribulation. People holding to such beliefs are usually Ruckmanites. Salvation is by grace through faith in ALL DISPENSATIONS and ALL COVENANTS.

Any thoughts?
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Old 10-01-2008, 08:56 AM
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Not all who teach that are Ruckmanites.

Jesus taught that in Matthew 19, before the Cross.
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Old 10-01-2008, 09:04 AM
ericwgreene
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BibleStudent - are you saying that Jesus taught that people in other dispensations and during the Great Tribulation are saved by works and faith?
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Old 10-01-2008, 09:16 AM
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Matt 19:16-29
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
KJV

Question:What good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Jesus' Answer:Keep the commandments.

Question: Who then can be saved?
Jesus' Answer: Every one that hath forsaken houses, etc. shall inherit eternal life.
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Old 10-01-2008, 09:19 AM
ericwgreene
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BibleStudent - which dispensations or other time periods (such as the Great Tribulation) do you add "works" to salvation?
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Old 10-01-2008, 09:32 AM
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In time periods under which Abraham lived and Rahab lived:

James 2:14
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
KJV
James 2:21
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
KJV
James 2:24-25
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
KJV
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Old 10-01-2008, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
James 2:21
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
KJV
This occurred after Abraham had been justified by faith. This sacrifice of Isaac was an act of sanctification. It provided evidence that Abraham had in fact been justified by faith previously. Look back at Romans 4.
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Old 10-01-2008, 09:44 AM
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In fact all of Romans is about justification by faith alone. And to prove the point Paul writes about how both Abraham and David was justified by faith not by good works.
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Old 10-01-2008, 10:39 AM
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Adam and Eve were not 'saved' by faith. They were 'saved' by works, that is, 'not eating' of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

We know that faith is
"... the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Adam and Eve knew God was there, had heard His voice, had spent time speaking with Him and visiting with Him in the garden.

That's not 'faith'.
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Old 10-01-2008, 11:15 AM
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I am sorry, I was operating under the assumption that our frame of reference was from the Fall until the Second Coming. Clearly, Adam and Eve fell because of their lack obedience. But before they fell the did not need saving either. So you have a moot point I think. Therefore, even after the Fall, Adam and Eve were saved by faith alone no personal works included.

Besides our faith in God does not save us. Even the devils believe in God and they tremble. We are saved because we place our faith and trust in Christ to save us. This is more than just a mere belief in God, but rather a specific trusting in God's Son, Jesus Christ, and the substitutionary atonement He made for us on the cross.

Last edited by ericwgreene; 10-01-2008 at 11:25 AM.
 

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