[stephanos]

Originally Posted by MC1171611

Stephen,

By his definition, I'd tend to be more of a "hyper-dispensationalist" than he, because I tend to place the beginning of the Body of Christ in Acts 8 or thereabouts. I'm not fully set in that, but that's what I tend toward.

Give the guy a little grace.

On the subject of Inspiration, though, I believe he and I are almost step-in-step: I don't see why God could have inspired those MEN (He does not inspire "words") and couldn't or wouldn't inspire the men producing the translation of those words that would be used for the rest of human history. Why would God inspire Paul, Peter and James to write the words, but not inspire the translators of the King James Bible to translate those pure words into English?

¡No comprendo!

I was giving him grace. But he kept tossing out that word "hyper..." for some reason and I was trying to understand why he wanted us to know this fact about him.

I personally don't see how the Church could begin at Calvary since the Gospel which saves includes Christ's resurrection.

But anywho, I personally hold to the position that the Church began when the first disciples were sealed with the Holy Ghost at Pentacost. I think that was when the Holy Ghost added the first souls to the Body of Christ which IS the Church.

So to understand this doctrine, it's a matter of first knowing which Gospel we are saved by (the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ out Lord 1 Corinthians 15) and what seals us until the day of redemption (the Holy Ghost [Ephesians 4:30] which sealed the first disciples at Pentacost [Acts 2:4]). Pretty straight forward if you ask me. I think people in the dry cleaners camp get hung up on the fact that Paul was given many manifold revelations (2 Corinthians 12:7). But those were not Gospel changing revelations, nor did they change the mode by which Christians are sealed until redemption.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by stephanos

I was giving him grace. But he kept tossing out that word "hyper..." for some reason and I was trying to understand why he wanted us to know this fact about him.

I personally don't see how the Church could begin at Calvary since the Gospel which saves includes Christ's resurrection.

But anywho, I personally hold to the position that the Church began when the first disciples were sealed with the Holy Ghost at Pentacost. I think that was when the Holy Ghost added the first souls to the Body of Christ which IS the Church.

So to understand this doctrine, it's a matter of first knowing which Gospel we are saved by (the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ out Lord 1 Corinthians 15) and what seals us until the day of redemption (the Holy Ghost [Ephesians 4:30] which sealed the first disciples at Pentacost [Acts 2:4]). Pretty straight forward if you ask me. I think people in the dry cleaners camp get hung up on the fact that Paul was given many manifold revelations (2 Corinthians 12:7). But those were not Gospel changing revelations, nor did they change the mode by which Christians are sealed until redemption.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Stephen, thank you for being graceful to me. I'm not being sarcastic either, but sincere. Thank you.

The reason I bring out my dispensational belief right here at the beginning is this: I tried to have a dialogue with Gary Hudson. When he found out that I was holding the inspired Scriptures in my hand, he cut me off, used my words to try and illustrate his own agenda, the same as the Jesuits(the original manuscripts), and branded me a "Ruckmanite". Like I've said before, Doc Pete ain't no Absolom or Ahab, that didn't bother me. Being labeled and marginalized did. This was in 1988.

The middle part of this decade I was a member of several KJV yahoo groups and one Ruckman group. I know Will Kinney online and gave him the number of words in Shakespeare's vocabulary and the number now obsolete, with Chaucer and Poe and the KJV. it took me like 21 months compiling that information. Anyway, I was thrown out of the KJV groups when they found out I wuz one a them thar church splittin' dry cleaners. I was thrown out of the Ruckman group because the Pharisees in that group accused me of being "antinomian" an' one a them thar church splittin' drycleaners.

Brother, so you know the only person to ever emulate(Gal. 5:20) Dr. peter Sturges Ruckman's bitter sarcasm and facetiousness?

Dr. Peter Sturges Ruckman.

The Pharisaic attitude didn't upset me, being labeled and marginalized did. When I am called "hyperdispensationalist drycleaner" it marginalizes the fact I'm willing to be hit on the street with a syphilis-infected bag of urine for the gospel of Christ as you are, or any other Christian. I'm not a cussword, I'm an ambassador for Christ, a minister of the reconsiliation to wit, God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself. Don't call me a drycleaner, it might make me cry.

No one will agree with you more about Paul's manifold revelations than a grace believer like me. Paul had the signs of an apostle till he no longer was witness to Israel alone. He baptized in water till the signs of an apostle were taken from him.

1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

No one will let Paul be a wise masterbuilder more than me. He laid his foundation and then it was grafted into the Body of Christ that the 12 apostles were given. I take heed that I do not baptize in water Jews who are to be a kingdom of priests but let the Holy Ghost circumcise my listener's spirits from them and baptizing them into the Body Of Christ, where there is no Jew or Gentile. I respectfully disagree with you on Acts 2 being the beginning of the Body. He was buried yes, he was resurrected, yes, he added TO this Body on Pentecost. But for Him to be buried and resurrected first he had to die, ergo, the Body began at Calvary when He said, it is finished.

The Body began.

Brother, if the truth of water baptism first occurring in Leviticus 8 to first consecrate a Levite splits your church, that church is not held together by the Holy Spirit but by an ordinance of the law of Moses. If it hears it, and is not split, it is then held together by the Holy Spirit of God. God spilts churches, not men. Stam was the wedge that split the grace believers 25 years ago with Calvinism and the belief in the original manuscript fraud.

You may have chapter and verse on the Grace Movement's teaching on water baptism when I answer your message to me on the topic.

Grace and peace to you Stephen, thank you for at least reading this.

Tony

[George]

Aloha brother tonybones2112,

I have enjoyed many of your Posts, and find myself in agreement with you - {most of the time }. Since 1973, I too have been tossed out (or left) of four so-called "Fundamentalist" churches (1973 - asked to leave; 1982 - left of my own accord; 1986 - "de-churched" by a "pastor" {after having left that church 6 months earlier}; and 1993 - threatened to be "pounded from the pulpit", if I didn't leave). However, a statement in your Post #57 has me puzzled.

Your quote:

"No one will agree with you more about Paul's manifold revelations than a grace believer like me. Paul had the signs of an apostle till he no longer was witness to Israel alone. He baptized in water till the signs of an apostle were taken from him."

Can you give me the Scripture (or Scriptures) to verify your previous statement? I pretty much agree with you as to Paul's signs of an Apostle, but where (in the Holy Scripture) does it say or teach: "He baptized in water till the signs of an apostle were taken from him."?

I'm a big believer in Christian liberty and toleration (with the exception of clear, incontrovertible Heresy); and I can have "Fellowship" around the Lord Jesus Christ and His Holy word with many different kinds of Christians; and I would never break fellowship with a brother in Christ, if he held a conviction such as yours - as long as that conviction didn't lead to the insistence that I believe the same thing.

What you believe is not a "deal breaker" (i.e. fellowship breaker) for me, but (like several controversial topics on this Forum) there are some spiritual issues that will never be settled this side of Glory, and that do not reach the "breaking point" (i.e. fellowship breaker) or "threshold" of incontestable Heresy; and then there those issues that I refer to as the "weightier matters" where I refuse to give place - No, not for an hour!

It is obvious, from your Posts, that you have studied the word of truth and done your own thinking, meditating, and deliberating upon them (which is always dangerous around those who are doctrinaire , i.e. "narrow minded" ); that is why it is my hope that you will continue to seek to edify us with those things that God has shown you, and not seek to divide us with a doctrine that can only bring controversy and much contention.

I appreciate your honesty and forthrightness in declaring, up front, what you believe (rather than subtly trying to deceive). Let's us endeavor to concentrate on the "weightier matters" brother - there are enough differences of opinion, dissension, discord, and disputes going on amongst the brethren to keep us occupied for some time.

Romans 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

[Biblestudent]

Brother George, thanks for asking that question for me!

Brother tonybones 2112, I seem to agree with some of your "disagreements", but I disagree with you concerning the beginning of the Body of Christ and with your "drycleaning" conclusion.

I would like to ask two more questions:
1. Wasn't Christ made HEAD of the church, which is his body, at the Ascension? (Ephesians 1:22,23) If so, then the body has to be at least begin AFTER that.
2. Also, if water baptism is a sign (and signs are for the benefit of the Jew), then why did Paul baptize Gentiles even without one Jew present (as in Acts 16)?
This viewpoint may also vary from most of the brethren's in this forum, but have you ever considered that Paul's water baptism is different from that of John the Baptist's and Peter's in mode and meaning?

I don't see water baptism as a sign or a law only for the Jew (the word "baptism" being absent in the KJV OT). So, instead of doing away water baptism, I "rightly divide" the different baptisms, such as, Peter's vs. Paul's.
That is, I observe the "ordinancES" (plural, at least two) AS PAUL delivered it (1 Cor. 11:2), and not observe the "ordinances" which is CONTRARY to us (Col. 2:14-16).

Concerning your experience being an "outcast", I suffered the same thing with my fellow IFB's and "Ruckmanites". The two groups don't mix here, but I'm glad I haven't really broken fellowship from either as they are solid KJV Bible believers, and many times, we'd go together preaching (and "street preaching") with one mind and heart.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

Brother George, thanks for asking that question for me!

Brother tonybones 2112, I seem to agree with some of your "disagreements", but I disagree with you concerning the beginning of the Body of Christ and with your "drycleaning" conclusion.

I would like to ask two more questions:
1. Wasn't Christ made HEAD of the church, which is his body, at the Ascension? (Ephesians 1:22,23) If so, then the body has to be at least begin AFTER that.
2. Also, if water baptism is a sign (and signs are for the benefit of the Jew), then why did Paul baptize Gentiles even without one Jew present (as in Acts 16)?
This viewpoint may also vary from most of the brethren's in this forum, but have you ever considered that Paul's water baptism is different from that of John the Baptist's and Peter's in mode and meaning?

I don't see water baptism as a sign or a law only for the Jew (the word "baptism" being absent in the KJV OT). So, instead of doing away water baptism, I "rightly divide" the different baptisms, such as, Peter's vs. Paul's.
That is, I observe the "ordinancES" (plural, at least two) AS PAUL delivered it (1 Cor. 11:2), and not observe the "ordinances" which is CONTRARY to us (Col. 2:14-16).

Concerning your experience being an "outcast", I suffered the same thing with my fellow IFB's and "Ruckmanites". The two groups don't mix here, but I'm glad I haven't really broken fellowship from either as they are solid KJV Bible believers, and many times, we'd go together preaching (and "street preaching") with one mind and heart.

!. George, you could very well be correct on Ephesians 1.This would place the beginning of the Body Of Christ in Acts 1. My only objection to that is the passages in Ephesians 1 seem to indicate He was made Head of a Body already in existence, that being the 11 Apostles and His disciples. We cannot have an Ascension without a Resurrection, no Resurrection without a Burial, no Burial without a Death. I stand with Dr. Ruckman on this one: What have I got in my pocket? Something can be in existence without being revealed, we are looking back 2000 years after the fact. God made the Old Testament with Israel that was not binding on the Gentiles, at the cross He made a New Testament with Israel in that the Gentiles were now open to the blessing THROUGH ISRAEL. At the final rejection in Acts 7, Israel was set aside and salvation and blessing now come to the Gentiles apart from Israel. This segues into number two,
2. The first water baptism in the bible was in Leviticus 8, the first step in consecrating a Levite priest, the second step being the pouring of oil, a type of the Holy Spirit.To fulfill the prophecy of Exodus 19 to make a kingdom of priests, John The Baptist, of the tribe of Levi, came baptising with water., as he said several times, but One greater than he would perform the second part of the consecration, Christ, Who would "baptize"(pour out to wash)with the Holy Ghost. This is why the Holy Spirit points out in the Scriptures Apollos knew only "the baptism of John" and had to be shown a more perfect way. That's why Paul, a wise master builder, wrote to Jewish-Gentile churches (Rome, Corinth)and administered both "ordinances" and "signs".

1. Water baptism
2. Spirit baptism
3. Tongues
4. Signs
5. Wonders
6. Heal the sick
7. Raise the dead
8. The "Lord's supper"
9 Poisonous serpents will cause no harm.
10. Deadly poisons drank will cause no harm(to be fulfilled in the Tribulation when the waters are made bitter.)

I want to engrave two things into stone right now: The book of Acts is a very dangerous place to nest in and build a church denomination or theology from. I told my former Church Of Christ relatives that years before I read Doc Ruckman's words to that effect in his commentary on the book of Acts. The second is that we have to let Paul be what God made him into, a wise MASTER buldier who oversaw the whole project. Paul was the apostle through which God grafted the Gentiles into the Body and the apostle the 12 deferred to as the "prince" of the apostles, NOT Peter. So yes, Paul, a WISE master builder baptized in Acts 16 and then got bit by vipers in Act 28 and threw them into the fire. His ministry exclusively to Israel ended at the end of that chapter/book. Bullinger said the Body began there. No, the Body began at Calvary, the signs ended at Acts 28.

Paul mentions the Lord's supper to the Corinthians in the context of stop having orgies at church. When we were on the street with that ministry, every beer bottle and rock, every bag of urine thrown at us was a reminder of why we were there, to tell the lost of Christ's broken body and shed blood for everybody, not Welch's juice and a Zesta saltine. Jesus Christ and the 12 observed the Jewish Passover where Christ showed them the TRUE meaning of the ordinance and Feast. I don't observe it. I'm a Gentile born outside the commonwealth of Israel but made nigh by the blood of Christ, not by immersion in water nor Welch's and a Zesta saltine.

If we are going to cherry-pick Messianic Jewish ordinances and signs from the book of Acts, I need to see where church buildings, church letters, and denominations are found in the book of Acts since the only church buildings mentioned were synagogues and meeting in people's homes. Paul went to the Jews FIRST right up to the end of the book of Acts. I go to anybody and everybody.

Brother George, I'd be proud to serve in the front lines with you preaching Christ and Him crucified. if you need any further clarification just ask. My dispensationalist brethren are still trapped at Early, Mid, Late Acts. I'm in Acts chapter 29 verse 1. You say there is no Acts 29. Yeah, look in the mirror.

Right now, today. Acts 29 is us. The fields are white to harvest, today is the day of salvation.

Grace, peace, and much fruit to you.

Tony

[Biblestudent]

I'm Biblestudent, not George!

[Biblestudent]

"Baptism" is a NT word and not once found in the OT in the KJV.

Water baptism to the Jew is different than the water baptism for the church.
Lord's Supper for the Jew has a different meaning than the Lord's supper for the church.

1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

Church ordinances AS DELIVERED BY PAUL are not the same as the ordinances to Israel,which "are contrary to us" (Col. 2:14-16).

Kingdom signs and kingdom ordinances were dropped, but Christ delivered through Paul church ordinances.