Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
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  #21  
Old 03-06-2009, 12:09 AM
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I agree Brother Tony. Don't know why they don't want to answer that question. It's a question I've been struggling with lately. I mean I agree with the Brother's response before mine. I know we're saved by GRACE through faith. But can a person really just believe in Jesus' existence and be saved? The bible says even the devils believe and they tremble, but is belief alone enough to save your soul from hell? Does not a person have to be drawn by the Holy Ghost and repent? Can a person have no intention whatsoever of turning from the sin and filth of this world, and just ask Jesus to save them just to avoid hell or use Jesus to get them out of their "problem"? I don't believe so! Anyway, can't wait to see you brother Tony! God's speed!
Clint, the devils who believe were faced with Christ showing up to them in Person and saying, here I Am. These devils, evil spirits, are already damned, there is no salvation offered to them.

"Jailhouse religion" is calling on Jesus when we are busted, those with a criminal heart get out of jail, change identities, and continue in their crimes. So long Jesus.

"Repentence" is merely changing your mind, and many pop a cork when they see that the first recorded repentence in the bible was God:

Ge 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Ex 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Every human is born with a throne in them, only one person can sit on that throne. Us, or God. When we unseat ourselves and let God sit, we change our minds towards Him and accept His sacrifice for us. That is Paul's gospel of Christ.

You have a problem all Christians have. Clint is going to do what he should not do and not do things he should. That's what Paul said. That's where grace abounds that while we are yet sinners He died for us. Sin is transgression of the law and you sin everytime you shave, according to the law.

Le 19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

Only Christ kept the law, proving we could NOT. HE TOOK OUR PLACE. None are good, no, not one, but Him. You are going to struggle with your flesh all your earthly life.

Be of good cheer my friend. Go to Romans 8 and tell me what can separate Clint from the love of Christ? We are created to PERFORM good works, but we cannot walk in them or the good works of others. Our walk is by FAITH, not by SIGHT. That faith given to us as a gift, the faith of Christ He had on the cross as He suffered, as told in Eph. 2.

If I can answer a question for you, you need only ask my friend. I am looking forward to meeting you.

Grace and peace

Tony
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  #22  
Old 03-06-2009, 12:28 AM
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You are saved by Grace and Faith alone. But works tends to be a result after that. Part of those works could be considered turning away from sinful ways. But this is a complicated subject.

Read the Book of James again for some more info on the subject too. James and Paul emphasize different aspects of Salvation.
Gal. 2:1 ¶ Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man’s person) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

James 1:1 ¶ James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Monk, my friend, what tribe are you?

My aunt died of leukemia in 1973 and was saved on her deathbed. She died a few hours later. The capillaries in her body ruptured. She was a mass of bruises and looked like she had been in a barfight. She had no time to perform any works, either good or evil.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

According to James, not written TO me but FOR me, my aunt's faith was dead. Is she in hell?

I'm not being facetious. I'm asking a serious Bible question.

Grace and peace

Tony
  #23  
Old 03-06-2009, 12:31 AM
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I'm in Eaton, brother...what church do you attend?
Ambassadors For Christ, Pastor Bill Jennings. We are a small grace dispensational church, King James Only.

Grace and peace buddy

Tony
  #24  
Old 03-06-2009, 12:53 AM
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I'm in Eaton, brother...what church do you attend?
Duh, sorry about that. Bill's church is in New Carlisle.

Grace and peace

Tony
  #25  
Old 03-06-2009, 05:56 AM
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Ambassadors For Christ, Pastor Bill Jennings. We are a small grace dispensational church, King James Only.

Grace and peace buddy

Tony
Thanks brother. Perhaps my wife and I will come visit some day, probably on a Saturday if I can get off work...
  #26  
Old 03-06-2009, 08:12 AM
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"According to James, not written TO me but FOR me, my aunt's faith was dead. Is she in hell?"

Yes I do believe she is saved and not in hell.

You misunderstand me but then again I can be vague sometimes. I do not define works as James did , that being converted Jews who still kept the law in that context. Since I am not a Jew, it does not mean the same thing to me, like you stated, it was not written to us, but for us.

I see works like this. You are saved now what do you do with yourself? Your works are simply how you show your salvation in your life with your actions. This will vary from person to person. It can be turning from sinful ways, that being, getting drunk all the time, "sleeping around", cursing a lot, etc etc etc. When you turn from those things, it can be considered a work of sorts.

I am not trying to be confrontational, but if I have some error, please show me.
  #27  
Old 03-06-2009, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by tonybones2112 View Post
My aunt died of leukemia in 1973 and was saved on her deathbed. She died a few hours later. The capillaries in her body ruptured. She was a mass of bruises and looked like she had been in a barfight. She had no time to perform any works, either good or evil.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

According to James, not written TO me but FOR me, my aunt's faith was dead. Is she in hell?

I'm not being facetious. I'm asking a serious Bible question.
It is an excellent question, and one that has caused a lot of confusion for people. I believe that the answer is that your aunt was given Christ's faith and along with it Christ's works. So her faith was "not without works."

Since, as James says, faith is dead without works, faith and works go hand-in-hand. The question is who's "faith" we have.

This changes for different dispensations. Note:
Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
(His being "the just.")

But for us:
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Of course, we must have faith in Christ, and we must believe in Christ:
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
I don't claim to have this all sorted out perfectly, but I do think it's clear that there is a difference between "of" and "in." The faith "of" Christ is a gift given to use by God after we believe:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Side note: I think Calvinism has greatly misunderstood the above verse. This is not about being given belief, it is about being given the faith of Christ.)
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
So whatever "works" that are required to make our faith "alive" (per James 2) have been done by Christ. That is not to say that we don't have our own works to do -- we do (1Th 1:3). But as for the works that bring us our righteousness and salvation, we can rest assured that someone far more reliable than ourselves is taking care of it.
Psalms 74:12 For God is my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth.
  #28  
Old 03-06-2009, 09:15 AM
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Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
What an important alteration when moving from the OT to the NT! Inspired adjustment with new application.
  #29  
Old 03-07-2009, 12:23 AM
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Thanks brother. Perhaps my wife and I will come visit some day, probably on a Saturday if I can get off work...
Sounds good. Bill has services on Sunday mornings and Wednesday evenings, email me for his address and times. I have not been in a while, I have a family illness I've had to deal with for a number of weeks. We would be honored to have you

Grace and peace

Tony
  #30  
Old 03-07-2009, 12:56 AM
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Thanks brother. Perhaps my wife and I will come visit some day, probably on a Saturday if I can get off work...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tmonk View Post
"According to James, not written TO me but FOR me, my aunt's faith was dead. Is she in hell?"

Yes I do believe she is saved and not in hell.

You misunderstand me but then again I can be vague sometimes. I do not define works as James did , that being converted Jews who still kept the law in that context. Since I am not a Jew, it does not mean the same thing to me, like you stated, it was not written to us, but for us.

I see works like this. You are saved now what do you do with yourself? Your works are simply how you show your salvation in your life with your actions. This will vary from person to person. It can be turning from sinful ways, that being, getting drunk all the time, "sleeping around", cursing a lot, etc etc etc. When you turn from those things, it can be considered a work of sorts.

I am not trying to be confrontational, but if I have some error, please show me.
Monk, pardon me if I left the impression I was being combative. It's hard to convey tone of voice and indeed, volume of what we are speaking. You and I have never spoken, in the future you should find me the least offensive of Internet contacts. Were we all in this thread together in person, you would hear my questions in an entirely different way than the impression I left.

My only catch is I see so much James being quoted and not enough Paul. That is each of our liberties to do. I guess I could give Dr. Ruckman a run for his money in facetiousness and sarcasm with the Alexandrian crowd, but not in a serious discussion of Scripture and doctrine with those I consider brethren, as you.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply, as I said, as you get to know me you see I just speak my mind openly and while it looks contentious, it's not. Grace and peace to you, and let me offer you the right hand of fellowship and a great day today and all days.

Tony
 

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